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Expensive TT's all hype? Real discussion

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Yamahaha

Yamahaha

Well-Known Member
No, I am not just trying to stir a pot.

I love gear. Recently though I did something foolish and was disappointed. First, I have 2 turntables which I kept from about 4 I had long term. One is an Original Oracle AC with Sumiko FT-4 premier arm. The other a Yamaha PF1000, all stock (except cart of course)

Yup, both VERY vintage at this point, both serviced, both run like a top.

So, one day I let an audioshop sell me on the idea that modern tech has advanced and that the Gold Note 425 SE (the Bryston table without Bryston badge in it) would "slay" my other tables.

Hmmm, I mean the table didn't look like much. But the arm looked good and the bearing was supposed to be all that plus chips. Plus the salesman said it beat most other tables they sold and I would be floored by its tight bass and overall precision.

Lets just said I was floored all right ... floored by what a crappy table it was. First off, the motor was noisy. It made a scratchy sound that got louder by the minute. So it went back and replacement table (same thing jut table #2) had an even worse motor problem. Wow, what a failure. But both motors did keep speed. Anyway, the motor noise tainted the whole experience but I tried to get though and try the table anyway.

Did it blow away either of my vintage tables? Nope. Not at all. The Gold Note was in fact precise. But it sounded thin like CD's do to me compared to my normal tables. Then I sat back and just looked at it. Hmmm, the oracle of course is a piece of art. Even my wife is please to see it every day. The Yamaha is nice too, not a stunner like the oracle but its clear just looking at it much went into production. The gold note? Cheap MDF block, the cheapest cable, a dust hood that cannot be used while playing (or the counterweight smacks into the side near end of record). The big Delrin platter looked cool and the arm, well the design all made sense but the adjustment and lift mech were beyond primitive. No on the fly, dial VTA just a set screw and manual lift/drop. The cue lift is tiny and has lots of play. On top of that it was not setup at the factory and it dropped like a rock. No dampening fluid. Lower the cue and BAM SLAM drops the arm. ON BOTH! so clearly wasn't just a mistake. No anti skate which the salesman said was not needed due to the arm bearing being "that good". This may be true as I tested it and yeah, no anti skate was needed.

So, Gold Note table #2 went back. Was I happy about it? No. I was disappointed. I mean, could it really be manufacturers cannot built a solid table today without it being 10k? Even the Mitsubishi DD table in my wife's office is a rock solid heavy beast of quality compared to the Gold Note. Just the plinth alone. I paid $300 for the mitsubishi. Sure, the arm on the Gold Note would beat many, but with the low grade materials and motor problems ... I just dont get it.

To be fair I used to love vintage Receivers too. Still do I just dont trust them and I am of the opinion that we have much better tech now. So I am not diehard vintage guy with a bias. I've been running a Yamaha A-S2100 for several years now and sold all my serviced Optonica, Marantz, Pioneer SX's etc. Of course thats another rant as the guy that sold me the Gold Note kept telling me my Yamaha was garbage. Have you heard the A-S2100? No. But its garbage? .... I see, you are lumping it into best buy by name ... how professional. Never mind the countless forums of people saying the Yamahas beat Hegel in at home tests.

Anyway, to the point of this diatribe - Why is it that an expensive new table is so crappy compared to the 40 year old stuff that still runs? I mean, those motors should be the noisy problem but they're not. The new one was.Perplexing.
 
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You should have known that the gold note is garbage by how hard dealers are pushing it. A table that is permanently 50% off means two things :

1-the manufacturer's pricing policy is bogus
2- OF THE price that you paid the smallest portion had gone to R&D or manufacturing and the dealer cut is huge .

As a side note the other relative newcomer EAT actually delivers decent quality and their pricing is a lot more honest. Specially with the surge in price of vintage turntables some of these modern tables are starting to become attractive again. But not gold note.
 
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I got an Impro PE 3060 for $80. Fully functioning, just needed a little relubrication and a cleaning after a few months of use. Sounds quite good, and though my experience with high quality turntables is fairly limited, I think it’s just fine.

My first record player ever (a Crosley for college)? $150 when it first came out I believe. I think their reasoning is because it has a usb and auxiliary input, in addition to the 78 rpm switch. Also didn’t have a cheap red cartridge, had an AT N5. Speed issues, no automatic function, plastic tonearm. While it was convenient, and certainly not the worst turntable Crosley offers, it just feels like a huge scam when people buy these things. I wish they weren’t pushed as much as they are to millennials and Gen Z. Urban Outfitters comes to mind.

So yea, not all new turntables are garbage. But I’m definitely starting to believe that you should always look for older turntables off craigslist, thrift, etc. when looking for the best bang for your buck. I’ve encountered a few older turntables such as VM, Zenith, BSR, Dual, PE, Technics, and newer AT (though like I mentioned, nothing deemed incredibly high quality), and they all still sound better than the Crosley’s or the ones available at Target/Walmart for $200. Even the BSR’s I’ve been working on I believe sound better than that Crosley. $40 for two all in one units with BSR turntables. With automatic functions and 33/45/78 rpm speed options. I’ve managed to convince one of my friends out of getting an AT turntable, save his money, and test and grab an old turntable secondhand. Maybe there’s error in my reasoning, as I’m still relatively new to all this, but I can honestly say I’m happy I’ve learned this lesson. And that my records are safe from crappy needles.
 
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I think if I ever go shopping for a upper level table I will bring in my old table and require them to hook it up to demonstrate how much better their table sounds than mine. You know a system is going to sound different from in the shop to your house, but you can easily bring in your table and phone amp and hook it into their AUX input so you can do direct comparison to their table cart setup. If you don't hear a noticeable improvement from their table to yours, their probably won't be one when you get it home.

I use a Yamaha PF1000 all the time, I think its a very good table, probably, right their with a SOTA, as I think Yamaha built it with competing with SOTA in mind. Now the SOTA gives you the option of putting a better arm on it, and a vacuum platter, so depending on how much improvement a vacuum platter will offer and how much you shell out for a tonearm, those are considerations. Personally I have my doubts that I would notice much of a difference between the Yamaha and a SOTA.
 
There will always be the higher priced "poser" type of equipment sold. Smooth styling and well hyped, many buyers with pocketbooks bigger than their knowledge of or ability to discern how it really stacks up as an audio value are the likely target.
 
An arm that pivots and is so advanced that it doesn't need antiskate? This statement defies the simple physics embedded in the geometry of a normal cartridge setup. The skating force is applied as a result of the friction between the stylus and the record. The only configuration that does not produce that force is a linear tracker. If the tonearm swings around a pivot point, the spinning record will try to force the stylus toward the center of the record. The only way to resist that force is either antiskating force applied to the tonearm or friction in the tonearm bearing causing it to not swing inward in response.

I leave it you to decide which solution that turntable was using, but skating is a result of geometry and is always present.

And of course you observations on the motor noise and construction are important to note as well.

I think we call all draw our own conclusions on the veracity of the salesman in this tale.

Shelly_D
 
The sales manager at one of the audio stores I was with, brought a new guy on board. Someone his wife knew that needed a job.

After the obligatory “How. can I help you?”, he asked customers “what have you looked at, what have you seen?” To which his answer was “Good thing you came here because that stuff is all junk”.

He possessed no knowledge of stereo equipment to speak of yet thought he knew it all. The sales manager and store manager received phone calls about him and he got turfed 2 weeks after starting.

I think his previous job was selling paint.
 
Had a AR table in the early 70s, went to a Linn Basik that I haven’t used in years. Share V15 type 3, I’m going to pull it out of prison, looking for a new cabinet for equipment. Probably build one.
 
I use a Yamaha PF1000 all the time, I think its a very good table, probably, right their with a SOTA, as I think Yamaha built it with competing with SOTA in mind. Now the SOTA gives you the option of putting a better arm on it, and a vacuum platter, so depending on how much improvement a vacuum platter will offer and how much you shell out for a tonearm, those are considerations. Personally I have my doubts that I would notice much of a difference between the Yamaha and a SOTA.[/QUOTE]

quite an assumption
 
Yamahaha said:
No, I am not just trying to stir a pot.

I love gear. Recently though I did something foolish and was disappointed. First, I have 2 turntables which I kept from about 4 I had long term. One is an Original Oracle AC with Sumiko FT-4 premier arm. The other a Yamaha PF1000, all stock (except cart of course)

Yup, both VERY vintage at this point, both serviced, both run like a top.

So, one day I let an audioshop sell me on the idea that modern tech has advanced and that the Gold Note 425 SE (the Bryston table without Bryston badge in it) would "slay" my other tables.

Hmmm, I mean the table didn't look like much. But the arm looked good and the bearing was supposed to be all that plus chips. Plus the salesman said it beat most other tables they sold and I would be floored by its tight bass and overall precision.

Lets just said I was floored all right ... floored by what a crappy table it was.
Click to expand...

To compete with Oracle you need to spend 5 times more (quick search resulted in Gold Note offered for $1500 new). Keep in mind that price for all vinyl related jumped almost 2 times in the last five years. Example of a decent modern table look at VPI Prime Signature.

Fair price for Gold Note should be in $300-400 range. That is where similar (poor) quality Rega was sold for 5 years ago before recent pice jump.
 
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Sometimes a durable, rugged, and really well built turntable is necessary. Especially those who use their turntables many hours a week. Such technology is not cheap, but is out there at somewhat sensible prices. For people like me, many DC motored, high end neo belt drives (including some selling for thousands of dollars) are not suitable for such applications. Consider this. I need workhorse, durable, reliable, isolated against extreme footfalls without a wall shelf, and excellent performance with no need for this upgrade, that upgrade, that power supply, or subplatter. Rega and Pro-jects, VPI, and SOTA need not apply. Please note. I like their better models, but they don't meet my needs.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
Sometimes a durable, rugged, and really well built turntable is necessary. Especially those who use their turntables many hours a week. Such technology is not cheap, but is out there at somewhat sensible prices. For people like me, many DC motored, high end neo belt drives (including some selling for thousands of dollars) are not suitable for such applications. Consider this. I need workhorse, durable, reliable, isolated against extreme footfalls without a wall shelf, and excellent performance with no need for this upgrade, that upgrade, that power supply, or subplatter. Rega and Pro-jects, VPI, and SOTA need not apply. Please note. I like their better models, but they don't meet my needs.
Click to expand...

Technics 1200GR will likely fill your demand. Put it on Minus-K platform (isolation from footfalls) and call it a day.
 
Yamahaha: Ca. 30 years ago I auditioned the Goldmund Reference, equipped with a very good MC and hooked to an adequate system, and while it sounded good, it didn't really sound any better than the Thorens TD160Super with Grace G707 and Yamaha MC505 I used to have at that time. Quite disappointing, considering the significant price difference. And I've made similar diminishing returns experiences in quite a few other hifi component categories as well - and also in quite a few other product categories.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
nj pheonix said:
There are a lot of nice new tables in the 1-5k range today. (Well maybe not a lot, let's say there are some)
Sota, Clear audio, and VPI come to mind
I know nothing about the gold note.
From your description, it's not one of the good new tables
Click to expand...

What Sota, Or clear it VPi start at 1k?
 
Yamahaha said:
No, I am not just trying to stir a pot.

I love gear. Recently though I did something foolish and was disappointed. First, I have 2 turntables which I kept from about 4 I had long term. One is an Original Oracle AC with Sumiko FT-4 premier arm. The other a Yamaha PF1000, all stock (except cart of course)

Yup, both VERY vintage at this point, both serviced, both run like a top.

So, one day I let an audioshop sell me on the idea that modern tech has advanced and that the Gold Note 425 SE (the Bryston table without Bryston badge in it) would "slay" my other tables.

Hmmm, I mean the table didn't look like much. But the arm looked good and the bearing was supposed to be all that plus chips. Plus the salesman said it beat most other tables they sold and I would be floored by its tight bass and overall precision.

Lets just said I was floored all right ... floored by what a crappy table it was. First off, the motor was noisy. It made a scratchy sound that got louder by the minute. So it went back and replacement table (same thing jut table #2) had an even worse motor problem. Wow, what a failure. But both motors did keep speed. Anyway, the motor noise tainted the whole experience but I tried to get though and try the table anyway.

Did it blow away either of my vintage tables? Nope. Not at all. The Gold Note was in fact precise. But it sounded thin like CD's do to me compared to my normal tables. Then I sat back and just looked at it. Hmmm, the oracle of course is a piece of art. Even my wife is please to see it every day. The Yamaha is nice too, not a stunner like the oracle but its clear just looking at it much went into production. The gold note? Cheap MDF block, the cheapest cable, a dust hood that cannot be used while playing (or the counterweight smacks into the side near end of record). The big Delrin platter looked cool and the arm, well the design all made sense but the adjustment and lift mech were beyond primitive. No on the fly, dial VTA just a set screw and manual lift/drop. The cue lift is tiny and has lots of play. On top of that it was not setup at the factory and it dropped like a rock. No dampening fluid. Lower the cue and BAM SLAM drops the arm. ON BOTH! so clearly wasn't just a mistake. No anti skate which the salesman said was not needed due to the arm bearing being "that good". This may be true as I tested it and yeah, no anti skate was needed.

So, Gold Note table #2 went back. Was I happy about it? No. I was disappointed. I mean, could it really be manufacturers cannot built a solid table today without it being 10k? Even the Mitsubishi DD table in my wife's office is a rock solid heavy beast of quality compared to the Gold Note. Just the plinth alone. I paid $300 for the mitsubishi. Sure, the arm on the Gold Note would beat many, but with the low grade materials and motor problems ... I just dont get it.

To be fair I used to love vintage Receivers too. Still do I just dont trust them and I am of the opinion that we have much better tech now. So I am not diehard vintage guy with a bias. I've been running a Yamaha A-S2100 for several years now and sold all my serviced Optonica, Marantz, Pioneer SX's etc. Of course thats another rant as the guy that sold me the Gold Note kept telling me my Yamaha was garbage. Have you heard the A-S2100? No. But its garbage? .... I see, you are lumping it into best buy by name ... how professional. Never mind the countless forums of people saying the Yamahas beat Hegel in at home tests.

Anyway, to the point of this diatribe - Why is it that an expensive new table is so crappy compared to the 40 year old stuff that still runs? I mean, those motors should be the noisy problem but they're not. The new one was.Perplexing.
Click to expand...

Not perplexing at all.

Remember the saying “they don’t make them like they use to”?

That’s a true statement regarding turntables.
AB635011-3965-4430-8BDC-381525F8D060.jpeg

I’d rather take the time to restore a vintage deck and show that it can blow most modern decks away. I have a few tables some new some vintage. Have a nice ProJect 2.9 wood, had/have a few linns, I think I’m at 5-6 right now. My vintage tables always sound better than new ones. I know there are new tables will sound better, but not for the $$... that’s for sure. :)
 
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