Really?? That’s quite surprising given how much hype there was around around that table. Literally in a class by itself TAS said for years at $50k was it?
Expensive TT's all hype? Real discussion
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Really?? That’s quite surprising given how much hype there was around around that table. Literally in a class by itself TAS said for years at $50k was it?
AudioFeline
Super Member
New does not automatically mean better. I've heard many turntables from the 1960/70's which would be very difficult to outperform. I have no doubt that there are some mighty fine mighty expensive new turntables that would give them a run for their money. But I would never assume that they would all be good. I look at some of them with shiny black and brass and gold and silver and wonder how much those finishes contribute to the sound and how much just contributes to the pricetag.
How much improvement in sound could there really be from the true hi-fi tables of the past. I mean seriously. Those things sound incredible. Some sometimes act like an older LP12, Star Sapphire or VPI wouldn’t be good enough any more.
Very strange thinking in my opinion.
Heck my meager Planar 2 is plenty good enough for me right now. Though I’ll probably upgrade to a P3 at some point to get something more solid that would I expect result in even better bass and more solid imaging.
Very strange thinking in my opinion.
Heck my meager Planar 2 is plenty good enough for me right now. Though I’ll probably upgrade to a P3 at some point to get something more solid that would I expect result in even better bass and more solid imaging.
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nj pheonix
Lunatic Member
I said 1-5k
Admittedly a little fast and loose with the facts (though under 5k most have entries)
Also from time to time someone gets the upgrade bug and one of the the aforementioned shows up for +/- a G or so (perhaps without cart) (also technically not "new" , though often times only a year or two old. I. My book still new. Clearly up for debate
)
Admittedly a little fast and loose with the facts (though under 5k most have entries)
Also from time to time someone gets the upgrade bug and one of the the aforementioned shows up for +/- a G or so (perhaps without cart) (also technically not "new" , though often times only a year or two old. I. My book still new. Clearly up for debate
)
Beobloke
Super Member
There are some superb new turntables available today.
There are some disappointing turntables available today.
It is possible to buy a vintage turntable that will see off modern turntables
It is possible to buy a vintage turntable that sounds like a bag of spanners
All of these statements are facts, but I dont think there are any sweeping generalisations that can be made to tie any of them together.
There are some disappointing turntables available today.
It is possible to buy a vintage turntable that will see off modern turntables
It is possible to buy a vintage turntable that sounds like a bag of spanners
All of these statements are facts, but I dont think there are any sweeping generalisations that can be made to tie any of them together.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
It does. And even the SL-1500 from the days of yore is sufficient. I use one as a daily turntable. I have SL-1200 models of various versions at work, and SP series broadcast models at same.
For starters here when I'm talking about old, that would be old quality many here could not afford when new anyway. There was far more junk tables built in the past no one even talks about or buys today.
I think the problem is people expect the quality of a old top end table that they buy at used prices today in a new table. But there is things that get in the way like labor and material cost. A 1979 $600 table was a ton of money back then, not many of us bought a table like that new then. Just because you buy that table today at $350 used price. You have the money for that because your income for your labor increased over all these years. Why would anyone think a new table costing half the price of the old table adjusted for inflation should be better. Yes in todays dollars and prices the old table is cheaper than the new one.
Lets see back in 1979 you could rent a house for $600 an apartment was around $300. So that 1979 $600 table above represented one months rent for a house and two for the apartment. Today in the same area and same kind of property a house s $5000 and a apartment is $2900. Do you expect the same quality table to be made today at only two times or 2.5 dollar increase over the 1979 table.
In order for that to happen your earnings for your labor would put you out in the street.
I think the problem is people expect the quality of a old top end table that they buy at used prices today in a new table. But there is things that get in the way like labor and material cost. A 1979 $600 table was a ton of money back then, not many of us bought a table like that new then. Just because you buy that table today at $350 used price. You have the money for that because your income for your labor increased over all these years. Why would anyone think a new table costing half the price of the old table adjusted for inflation should be better. Yes in todays dollars and prices the old table is cheaper than the new one.
Lets see back in 1979 you could rent a house for $600 an apartment was around $300. So that 1979 $600 table above represented one months rent for a house and two for the apartment. Today in the same area and same kind of property a house s $5000 and a apartment is $2900. Do you expect the same quality table to be made today at only two times or 2.5 dollar increase over the 1979 table.
In order for that to happen your earnings for your labor would put you out in the street.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
When you reduce a topic down to a binary solution you never capture the "truth". The initial post basically does this, either modern tables are the hype or they are not, and there is no narrative for discussion. As many have already touched upon, quality audio products cost real money back in the day, and very few of us bought many of the turntables that were considered upper tier then. Secondly the audio landscape has changed, where vinyl is now a niche market and the components sold in this market have essentially lost economies of scale and are more artisan type products.
There are tables from the 60 to 90's that are very capable tables. Over the last 7 or 8 years I have explored several of them, such as Throens T 124, Garrard 401, Technics SP 10 MK II, and a couple of others. Now they are fine tables that perform well and are nicely built, but the days of buying those for pennies on the dollar have passed by. Those tables cost real money now, and often has restoration costs attached to them. And they were not cheap when new either.
Later in this year I am going to have two current production tables here, one from VPI and one from Sota. So I will have two modern tables and two vintage tables. I had a late 80's era Sota here to make a proof of concept trial, and I preferred it to my current vintage tables. The new one has a whole series of refinements in it that outpace that Sota I had here.
The better turntables of today have incremental refinements over previous generation ones. Does this mean vintage ones sound poor, or that they cannot be enjoyed? Not at all. And given the fact they are bought on the USED market, you are getting a higher return for your dollar. However, there are increased risks and costs associated with age and needed maintenance. There are no free lunches in audio, or any part of life! You are trading cost versus risk of repair or in some cases total failure. But those refinements in the modern table may translate to better sound if the rest of your system is capable of showing it, and if it really matters to you. Everyone has a point where the sound is good enough for them and they want no more. Others want to explore what is around the next corner. You apparently were talked into peeking around that corner, and what you were led to believe was there was not. There are never any guarantees that any product will be exactly what you need, thats why you give it a test drive. I cannot say the Gold Note is a good or a bad table, never had any experience with one. But it was not the table for you, it did not meet your needs and expectations, and that is all that needs to be determined in your situation. Maybe vintage tables are all your heart desires, and that is the right choice for you. For others it may not be, and that the path they have to travel and determine for themselves.
Enjoy your Yamaha I am sure its a fine table.
Cheers
Mister Pig
There are tables from the 60 to 90's that are very capable tables. Over the last 7 or 8 years I have explored several of them, such as Throens T 124, Garrard 401, Technics SP 10 MK II, and a couple of others. Now they are fine tables that perform well and are nicely built, but the days of buying those for pennies on the dollar have passed by. Those tables cost real money now, and often has restoration costs attached to them. And they were not cheap when new either.
Later in this year I am going to have two current production tables here, one from VPI and one from Sota. So I will have two modern tables and two vintage tables. I had a late 80's era Sota here to make a proof of concept trial, and I preferred it to my current vintage tables. The new one has a whole series of refinements in it that outpace that Sota I had here.
The better turntables of today have incremental refinements over previous generation ones. Does this mean vintage ones sound poor, or that they cannot be enjoyed? Not at all. And given the fact they are bought on the USED market, you are getting a higher return for your dollar. However, there are increased risks and costs associated with age and needed maintenance. There are no free lunches in audio, or any part of life! You are trading cost versus risk of repair or in some cases total failure. But those refinements in the modern table may translate to better sound if the rest of your system is capable of showing it, and if it really matters to you. Everyone has a point where the sound is good enough for them and they want no more. Others want to explore what is around the next corner. You apparently were talked into peeking around that corner, and what you were led to believe was there was not. There are never any guarantees that any product will be exactly what you need, thats why you give it a test drive. I cannot say the Gold Note is a good or a bad table, never had any experience with one. But it was not the table for you, it did not meet your needs and expectations, and that is all that needs to be determined in your situation. Maybe vintage tables are all your heart desires, and that is the right choice for you. For others it may not be, and that the path they have to travel and determine for themselves.
Enjoy your Yamaha I am sure its a fine table.
Cheers
Mister Pig
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Trekkie4
Retired Member
Interesting... So, apparently the SL-1200 from the video above, a Japanese-made "bulletproof & "indestructible" table that costs $360 or more) features both the VTA problem with certain cartridges AND cue issue, where the arm drops too fast. This all sounds very much familiar ... I wonder why?
Until two years ago VPI started at $1200 for Scout model. Classic was $2500.
Yamahaha
Well-Known Member
Many good responses, other diatribes I expected. There is no way to talk about anything without generalizing or each post would be 8 pages.
For the guy who said the gold note was selling for $1500 - here is a link to the arm on that table http://www.akamaiaudio.it/index.php?id_product=348&controller=product
Overall I guess my personal summary is all that could be done with turntables was probably done by the 80's. I could see some improvements in bearing maybe, at least I would hope our machines have more accuracy today. But I still wonder why even the casing is so lame. For instance, I had a Yamaha PX2 (sold, regret it). That thing was a massive cast piece. Today they act like thats so expensive to do. But it isnt. Its not cheap but it inst rocket science. With new CNC machines I would think carving out a block of aluminum (or wood) etc has never been more economical.
As for the sales guy that sold me the Gold Note. Most hit the nail on the head about his character. I gave some trust and learned a lesson I already knew as a middle aged guy. Never trust. I moved across country last year and was used to my old audio dealer who had a much better approach. He sold me on nothing. Rather, he listened and when he though I should try something he said "take it home, let me know what you think". Needless to say I often just returned with the cash. Salesman I dealt with on the gold note was store owner, nice big shiny new shop. Full of brash statements. However turned ugly when I didnt want to keep junk. He was insulting and nasty and I had to turn to the distributor to resolve, which I did. Now months later he is arguing with people on the stores facebook page and writing blogs about how stupid people are when they dont listen to him about audio. I suspect thats bad for business. I do take some personal responsibility as I should have walked when he told me my Oracle would sound like "a bag of dead cats" compared to the Gold Note.
For the guy who said the gold note was selling for $1500 - here is a link to the arm on that table http://www.akamaiaudio.it/index.php?id_product=348&controller=product
Overall I guess my personal summary is all that could be done with turntables was probably done by the 80's. I could see some improvements in bearing maybe, at least I would hope our machines have more accuracy today. But I still wonder why even the casing is so lame. For instance, I had a Yamaha PX2 (sold, regret it). That thing was a massive cast piece. Today they act like thats so expensive to do. But it isnt. Its not cheap but it inst rocket science. With new CNC machines I would think carving out a block of aluminum (or wood) etc has never been more economical.
As for the sales guy that sold me the Gold Note. Most hit the nail on the head about his character. I gave some trust and learned a lesson I already knew as a middle aged guy. Never trust. I moved across country last year and was used to my old audio dealer who had a much better approach. He sold me on nothing. Rather, he listened and when he though I should try something he said "take it home, let me know what you think". Needless to say I often just returned with the cash. Salesman I dealt with on the gold note was store owner, nice big shiny new shop. Full of brash statements. However turned ugly when I didnt want to keep junk. He was insulting and nasty and I had to turn to the distributor to resolve, which I did. Now months later he is arguing with people on the stores facebook page and writing blogs about how stupid people are when they dont listen to him about audio. I suspect thats bad for business. I do take some personal responsibility as I should have walked when he told me my Oracle would sound like "a bag of dead cats" compared to the Gold Note.
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
Just as fire is hotter today, and water wetter. Air molecules are assembled more precisely, too. People are nicer, the world is safer, and grass is greener. Ever see old photos of grass? It's all grey!
Yamahaha
Well-Known Member
Uh ... OK. I was talking manufacturing technology. I have been a manufacturer. We have machines capable of great tolerances today we didnt have back then. That was my point. Not saying things couldnt be done in the past, but that they took a greater effort to arrive there vs what we can do now fairly simply. Why you had to take it where you did?
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
I suppose that if you are in manufacturing, then you are qualified to speak about tolerances, so I apologize. My quarrel is with those who who assume "modern is better" in general.
808_state
Super Member
I think one would also have to consider the means of the maker. If you are a large corporation with a big budget then mass producing a higher quality table should theoretically be much cheaper for you because you can buy in bulk and afford entire divisions for quality control. Now would you want to build such a table? Could you sell them all? What's the incentive? These are serious questions.
And then for a smaller operation that has to build from scratch, the cost is absolutely going to be more because if you are paying to have 5 chassis's machined out when the big company can afford an order of 5,000 there's very little opportunity to lower expenses. For turntables, the pricing is always going to be contextual. My Yamaha GT-2000 cost me about $1,600 with shipping but the newest latest greatest offering from Yamaha, the GT-5000 is priced at $6,000. Could Yamaha now afford to sell replicas of my GT-2000 at its current going rate, especially with all the effort that Victor put into the quality of the direct drive motor? Highly doubtful to improbable.
And then for a smaller operation that has to build from scratch, the cost is absolutely going to be more because if you are paying to have 5 chassis's machined out when the big company can afford an order of 5,000 there's very little opportunity to lower expenses. For turntables, the pricing is always going to be contextual. My Yamaha GT-2000 cost me about $1,600 with shipping but the newest latest greatest offering from Yamaha, the GT-5000 is priced at $6,000. Could Yamaha now afford to sell replicas of my GT-2000 at its current going rate, especially with all the effort that Victor put into the quality of the direct drive motor? Highly doubtful to improbable.
BillWojo
Addicted Member
Personally I think the best turntables ever built were built in Japan back in the early to mid 80's. The engineers in Japan were masters of perfecting designs and bringing them into production at very reasonable cost. Look at the high end all mechanical cameras that they produced in very high quantity's.
They were very robust and most still work fine today.
They perfected DD motor systems that have specs that are still better than almost all TT built today. Computer controlled tonearms that can trace the most convoluted grooves, LT tables that are very hard to beat and produce amazing sound.
All of the high end Japanese company's were in competition with each other and had great pride in the out come of the flag ship products. No company today has the massive research and design (R&D) departments that the Japanese company's had at there disposal. Because of that I consider any of the upper tier TT from the Japanese giants the best TT ever built.
Nothing really new in technology has come out since than to make these TT obsolete. Sure big massive platters driven by a tiny belt or string with lot's of bling to look impressive are all the rage in the high end world but are they really any better? I don't think so at all. Bearing technology hasn't improved, lubrication certainly has and it can be applied to the older tables.
An interesting new servo controlled ballscrew driven LT tonearm has been introduced by Dereneville that will best the older electro-mechanical tonearms like the Yamaha PX-2 or the Pioneer PL-L1000 but it cost EU30,000 and they are only producing a small quantity. See link.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/dereneville-linear-scanning-of-the-grooves.28801/unread
It uses a swing tonearm on a linear tracking base. Main difference is the tracking angle is exceedingly small before being driven into tangency again by the servo. Heck, my Yamaha PX-3 never gets more that 0.15 degrees out of tangent before it's corrected.
The only problem with most of the older Japanese high end TT is the age. ANY table that uses micro processors to control functions MUST be recapped for it's own safety. After that is done any mechanical cleaning, lubrication and adjusting will reward you with the pinnacle of TT technology. Dampening of the plinth may bring benefits as well.
Remember, these tables are all 30 years or older. Rebuild them and enjoy for another 30 years or more.
With all the used TT on the market today I would wager that most of the mid ship models from that era would trounce any new turntable $1000.00 or under. A 1982 TT that cost $300.00 would cost $780.00 today. But remember, they had economy of scale that most manufactures don't enjoy today. Today a boutique manufacture might sell a few thousand units or at the upper end a few dozen. They are mostly handmade. Back then a new model might be built by the millions to sell to a world wide market, tooling cost for diecasting, stamping and injection molding could easily be recouped.
If you spend 3 to 4 hundred for an older TT and that much to refurbish it you will have a really great TT in most instances. I certainly wouldn't be looking for something new.
Of course this is only my opinion but it's been formulated by both a ton of reading and research and my few experiences with upper tier Japanese TT and what my friends use for their more modern TT. I could be full of utter nonsense but I don't think so.
BillWojo
They were very robust and most still work fine today.
They perfected DD motor systems that have specs that are still better than almost all TT built today. Computer controlled tonearms that can trace the most convoluted grooves, LT tables that are very hard to beat and produce amazing sound.
All of the high end Japanese company's were in competition with each other and had great pride in the out come of the flag ship products. No company today has the massive research and design (R&D) departments that the Japanese company's had at there disposal. Because of that I consider any of the upper tier TT from the Japanese giants the best TT ever built.
Nothing really new in technology has come out since than to make these TT obsolete. Sure big massive platters driven by a tiny belt or string with lot's of bling to look impressive are all the rage in the high end world but are they really any better? I don't think so at all. Bearing technology hasn't improved, lubrication certainly has and it can be applied to the older tables.
An interesting new servo controlled ballscrew driven LT tonearm has been introduced by Dereneville that will best the older electro-mechanical tonearms like the Yamaha PX-2 or the Pioneer PL-L1000 but it cost EU30,000 and they are only producing a small quantity. See link.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/dereneville-linear-scanning-of-the-grooves.28801/unread
It uses a swing tonearm on a linear tracking base. Main difference is the tracking angle is exceedingly small before being driven into tangency again by the servo. Heck, my Yamaha PX-3 never gets more that 0.15 degrees out of tangent before it's corrected.
The only problem with most of the older Japanese high end TT is the age. ANY table that uses micro processors to control functions MUST be recapped for it's own safety. After that is done any mechanical cleaning, lubrication and adjusting will reward you with the pinnacle of TT technology. Dampening of the plinth may bring benefits as well.
Remember, these tables are all 30 years or older. Rebuild them and enjoy for another 30 years or more.
With all the used TT on the market today I would wager that most of the mid ship models from that era would trounce any new turntable $1000.00 or under. A 1982 TT that cost $300.00 would cost $780.00 today. But remember, they had economy of scale that most manufactures don't enjoy today. Today a boutique manufacture might sell a few thousand units or at the upper end a few dozen. They are mostly handmade. Back then a new model might be built by the millions to sell to a world wide market, tooling cost for diecasting, stamping and injection molding could easily be recouped.
If you spend 3 to 4 hundred for an older TT and that much to refurbish it you will have a really great TT in most instances. I certainly wouldn't be looking for something new.
Of course this is only my opinion but it's been formulated by both a ton of reading and research and my few experiences with upper tier Japanese TT and what my friends use for their more modern TT. I could be full of utter nonsense but I don't think so.
BillWojo
One also has to take into account that not all new tables sold by dealers are going to perform the same. The OP made a choice of new tables, and really those two tables do not define all new tables. Anyone that doesn't believe that their is no way to build a better turntable today then in the past, is simply ignoring the facts. But just because we do have the technology to make better products doesn't dictate that we will make a better product. The facts are markets tend to dictate the direction that manufactures lean, And upper end turntables are not the goals of most companies today. When it comes to most electronics, and that includes turntables, the main market is, make it cheap. Add to that turntables are not something in every household so its a rather small market. So as @BillWojo explained in his post, smaller runs of products tend to lessen the profitability of your product. So with less profit in small productions runs means something has to be compromised.
Not all of the more upper end turntables are made the same, so you really need to research your products carefully. A shop owner and his employees need to eat and pay their bills, so it is in their interest to sell you their product. In a perfect world they would want to make sure what they sell delivers what they promote. But alas everyone out their has a different idea of what they like and when a owner or a sale person needs to make a paycheck in the real world they will overlook the facts that perhaps their product won't be what's in your interest.
Not all of the more upper end turntables are made the same, so you really need to research your products carefully. A shop owner and his employees need to eat and pay their bills, so it is in their interest to sell you their product. In a perfect world they would want to make sure what they sell delivers what they promote. But alas everyone out their has a different idea of what they like and when a owner or a sale person needs to make a paycheck in the real world they will overlook the facts that perhaps their product won't be what's in your interest.
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