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First TT

infraviolet

infraviolet

Active Member
Hey ladies and gents,

I recently picked up a CEC ST 520 TT. The previous owner kept very good care of it judging on the exterior condition. It came with an AKG P5ED cartridge and the previous owner said that he has not changed the stylus since he bought it.

I set up the TT according to the manual. I first checked if the stylus and cartridge was properly aligned, and they were. Then I proceeded to set the tracking weight as well as the anti-skate.

Some background information for the AKG P5ED

  • elliptical stylus
  • tracks at 1.25 - 2 grams
According to the manual for the TT, I am to set the anti-skate at around 1.5 - 1.75 grams.

Initially I set the tracking force at 1.25 grams and anti-skate to 1.5 grams

After setting up, I played a record. At first, everything went as planned but then the needle started to 'jump' from the groove and move onto a different part of the record. I played the record from the beginning after changing the tracking force to 2 grams and the anti-skate to 1.75 grams. This time it tracked better but in the end, the needle still jumped. Does anyone know what's wrong ?

I played a new, not warped, record that was free of scratches and dust. The strange thing was that whenever the needle approached a part of the song with vocals or heavy bass, it would jump...:scratch2:
 
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The AKG cart's had a great rep but they deteriorate badly with age apparently.

Perhaps your cartridge suspension is shot?

You may need to consider an alternate cartridge...

I also never trust a used stylus until and unless you have inspected it thoroughly under a microscope. (and know what to look for!)
 
Congratulations on your new turntable!

Here is a link to a short video on tone arm set up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbsCWMh9nwY


A far as your AKG P5ED cartridge is concern, dlaloum is correct.

Try cleaning the stylus first, use a piece of Magic Eraser.

Check the suspension of the cartridge ( cantilever ) when you are playing a record.

Is it sagging under the pressure of the tone arm ?

Here is a link to one source of stylus replacement.
http://www.stereoneedles.com/AKG.html

The replacement stylus is quite expensive, you may want to replace the cartridge for now.

You can get a pretty good Shure M 97xE for a reasonable price.
http://www.canadapost.ca/shopper/items/1226907/Shure-M97xE-High-Performance-M97XE

There are other ones like the Nagaoka MP-11.:music:
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/mer...t_Code=NAGAOKAMP011&Category_Code=NAGAOKACART
 
Re-check tonearm balance. Make sure that it 'floats' and that a very gentle push or a breath of air will move it freely, on it's own axis. Then reset your TF and anti-skate as per the manual.
 
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Thanks for all the help everyone. I watched the video and this time the stylus tracks much better. There is still some 'jumping' of the stylus but that might be because of a bad pressing or the stylus.

Balifly said:
Congratulations on your new turntable!

Here is a link to a short video on tone arm set up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbsCWMh9nwY


A far as your AKG P5ED cartridge is concern, dlaloum is correct.

Try cleaning the stylus first, use a piece of Magic Eraser.

Check the suspension of the cartridge ( cantilever ) when you are playing a record.

Is it sagging under the pressure of the tone arm ?

Here is a link to one source of stylus replacement.
http://www.stereoneedles.com/AKG.html

The replacement stylus is quite expensive, you may want to replace the cartridge for now.

You can get a pretty good Shure M 97xE for a reasonable price.
http://www.canadapost.ca/shopper/items/1226907/Shure-M97xE-High-Performance-M97XE

There are other ones like the Nagaoka MP-11.:music:
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/mer...t_Code=NAGAOKAMP011&Category_Code=NAGAOKACART
Click to expand...

Balify said:
Check the suspension of the cartridge ( cantilever ) when you are playing the record.

Is it sagging under the presure of the tone arm?
Click to expand...

Err which part is the cantilever on my cartridge ? :lmao:

akgp5ed.jpg


As for cartridges, does anyone else have any other recommendations?
 
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The RedEd is a very good cartridge for the price, but I don't know the shipping cost. but for a $35USD cartridge it's quite capable.
 
infraviolet said:
Thanks for all the help everyone. I watched the video and this time the stylus tracks much better. There is still some 'jumping' of the stylus but that might be because of a bad pressing or the stylus.


Err which part is the cantilever on my cartridge ? :lmao:


As for cartridges, does anyone else have any other recommendations?
Click to expand...

The metal tubing with the diamond tip at the end is the cantilever.

The diamond tip itself maybe worn and needs replacing.:scratch2:
 
I'm not convinced that the skipping is a result either of a worn stylus or of the suspension hardening. Usually the signs of those problems are audible distortion rather than skipping. So I suspect that either there is binding in the bearings, or the cuing platform is a little high and fouls the arm now and again.
(The thing that made AKGs great was the unusual suspension, which, instead of the usual elastomer block around the cantilever, was a small thin sheet of bronze with a hole slightly larger than the cantilever, though which the cantilever passed and was held in place by a thin coating of elastomer. This meant that the pivot location of the cantilever was more precisely located, and imaging was noticeably finer than most cartridges. But it also meant that all of the elastomer was close to the surface and it aged more quickly than a thick block would.)
 
Nat said:
I'm not convinced that the skipping is a result either of a worn stylus or of the suspension hardening. Usually the signs of those problems are audible distortion rather than skipping. So I suspect that either there is binding in the bearings, or the cuing platform is a little high and fouls the arm now and again.
(The thing that made AKGs great was the unusual suspension, which, instead of the usual elastomer block around the cantilever, was a small thin sheet of bronze with a hole slightly larger than the cantilever, though which the cantilever passed and was held in place by a thin coating of elastomer. This meant that the pivot location of the cantilever was more precisely located, and imaging was noticeably finer than most cartridges. But it also meant that all of the elastomer was close to the surface and it aged more quickly than a thick block would.)
Click to expand...

Interesting. I will have a closer look at the cue arm when my TT is in use. The strange thing is that the stylus jumps whenever it gets to a part of the song with vocals or a part with heavy bass.

I didn't know the thin sheet of metal was made of bronze. I assumed that it was corrosion...:D Good to know that I might not need a new cartridge, yet.

Speaking about cartridges, does it matter what cartridge I use as long as it is the half-inch mount type?

mythless said:
The RedEd is a very good cartridge for the price, but I don't know the shipping cost. but for a $35USD cartridge it's quite capable.
Click to expand...

I'm having trouble finding that cartridge online. Do you have a link ?
 
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infraviolet said:
Speaking about cartridges, does it matter what cartridge I use as long as it is the half-inch mount type?
Yes, it does. You have to watch the cartridge weight that manufacturer prescribed and then pair the compliance of the cart with the compliance of the tonearm. But I'd trust the judgement of the AKers! :)

Congratulations on your first TT!
Enjoy!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Making a bunch of assumptions.... but just so you can see the process.

1) Work out the tonearm mass....

The CDC/CEC are a straight arm, so relatively mid/lightweight - probably circa 9g at a guess (anyone got real data?)

2) Find a tonearm resonance calculator.... eg:

http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html

Using an estimate of 5g for the cartridge, and 9g for the arm - makes up circa 14g.
Ideal resonant frequency is between 12Hz and 7Hz - and using the calculator that gives you a compliance range of between 13cu and 37cu.

Relatively high compliance MC's are around 13 to 15cu, the Audio Technica HiFi MM's tend to be around 18cu (with the top end ones getting a bit higher up to 20, 22cu - AT120e, AT440MLa, AT150MLx)
Ortofon OM20/30 tend to be around 25cu

Shure cartridges tend to be 20 to 25cu (some of the classic top of the line V15's had higher compliance)

Grado Cartridges tend to be around 20cu - another good match

If you want to go for a P-Mount cartridge (with an adapter) - all the p-mount cartridges have compliance within the right range for that arm.... so you pretty much wouldn't have to worry about matching with a p-mount setup. (which is the whole point of p-mount)
Lots of choices in p-mounts.... some of them new, but lots of vintage choices for which styli are still available.

4) Decide whether you want to go New - or you want to try a Classic cartridge.... with the classic cartridges, you can get the cartridge for a song (talking MM/MI no MC cartridges) - all the real cost will be in the stylus... Some of the classics have a very wide range of styli available - for example: Any of the AT120 family cartridges (AT120/130/140/150/125/135/145/155, etc...) or the p-mount AT122 family (AT122/132/142/152/Signet TK4ep/TK6ep/SLT96 etc....) can all interchange styli - so the range of styli available goes from basic heavy DJ type conicals, through elipticals, to shibata, line contact and MicroLine. - with stylus pricing going from sub $20 to over $200 (for things like the AT150MLx stylus)

Similarly for the Shure M series cartridges (many stylus options)...

and others

Ultimately the biggest determinant of sound quality is the stylus/cantilever used. Not so much the generator to which it is mounted.


So the world is your oyster - with that type of arm you have an enormous number of choices.

To narrow down the selection, you might want to tell us:

1) Your budget limits
2) Phono Stage type (and what facilities/flexibility it has in terms of loading for the cartridge)
3) Your listening preferences
4) Will you be listening mostly to "virgin" new vinyl, or rescued used vinyl?

(That last one is a bit of a trick question.... but if the answer is rescued/used then I will get into further detail....)

bye for now

David
 
If it's skipping on sections with loud bass, than that suggests either the arm isn't set up properly -- was it balanced properly before the tracking force was applied, and is the antiskating appropriate -- or that maybe the suspension has really seized up.
It might be worth gently working the cantilever back and forth and up and down to see if it is supple -- might actually soften it up a bit. But gently, gently...
 
Sultan swing said:
Yes, it does. You have to watch the cartridge weight that manufacturer prescribed and then pair the compliance of the cart with the compliance of the tonearm. But I'd trust the judgement of the AKers! :)

Congratulations on your first TT!
Enjoy!
Click to expand...

Thanks !

dlaloum said:
So the world is your oyster - with that type of arm you have an enormous number of choices.

To narrow down the selection, you might want to tell us:

1) Your budget limits
2) Phono Stage type (and what facilities/flexibility it has in terms of loading for the cartridge)
3) Your listening preferences
4) Will you be listening mostly to "virgin" new vinyl, or rescued used vinyl?

(That last one is a bit of a trick question.... but if the answer is rescued/used then I will get into further detail....)

bye for now

David
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the information ! It's helped me realize what I have gotten myself into :D

1) I'm willing to pay around $75 for the cartridge.

2) I don't have a phono preamp but I was looking at the Audio Technica PEQ3. The only concern for me is that the PEQ3 says it is not for use with moving coil cartridges. If I end up purchasing this pre-amp, would it greatly limit my choices for cartridges?

3) Mostly electronic music that has very strong bass. Occasionally there are vocals.

4) Not a clue if the records I bought were stamped on virgin or rescued vinyl but they are 'new records'...as in never been played before.

Nat said:
If it's skipping on sections with loud bass, than that suggests either the arm isn't set up properly -- was it balanced properly before the tracking force was applied, and is the antiskating appropriate -- or that maybe the suspension has really seized up.
It might be worth gently working the cantilever back and forth and up and down to see if it is supple -- might actually soften it up a bit. But gently, gently...
Click to expand...

I noticed that the tonearm was kind of sluggish while I was balancing it. My tonearm is not very responsive compared to the tonearm in this (fast forward to the 30 second mark) video that Balify linked me.
 
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infraviolet said:
Thanks !

1) I'm willing to pay around $75 for the cartridge.

2) I don't have a phono preamp but I was looking at the Audio Technica PEQ3. The only concern for me is that the PEQ3 says it is not for use with moving coil cartridges. If I end up purchasing this pre-amp, would it greatly limit my choices for cartridges?

3) Mostly electronic music that has very strong bass. Occasionally there are vocals.

4) Not a clue if the records I bought were stamped on virgin or rescued vinyl but they are 'new records'...as in never been played before.

I noticed that the tonearm was kind of sluggish while I was balancing it. My tonearm is not very responsive compared to the tonearm in this (fast forward to the 30 second mark) video that Balify linked me.
Click to expand...

OK your last point is of some concern... if the arm is not moving easily - then it is time for a strip down/clean/lube.... spend some time on some technics forums where they can advise you how to clean and lube your arm. - It should move completely freely!!!! (this may explain any skipping)

In answer to the points above

1) $75 budget - ok forget MC's even the most basic MC's will start at 3 times that price.... and the MC phono stage or step up transformer will add another couple of 100 $$$ to the equation. - You need to stick with MM / MI cartridges.
At $75 you could look at:
Shure M97xE - great bass, good cartridge, upgradeable to exceptional cartridge with SAS stylus ($170 - future option)
Ortofon Omega - Ortofon OM family, a good basic performer at a great price - upgradeable to OM20/30/40 (30 or 40 are up there with the best)
Audio Technica AT120e (maybe a little expensive...) again upgradeable with styli
In the used marketplace you might be able to get something like an ADC XML II or III with a New Stylus for around your budget
Empire 2000 series with a new stylus should also be possible at that price

Any of the above options should fit the budget initially and be upgradeable with better styli down the road - they are all top value performers. Read reviews of them on here, on VinylEngine and on Audiogon in the "Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?" (warning that last one is a long running 3 year thread with a lot of activity - you can spend days reading it! - But also very educational with regards to classic/vintage MM carts)

2) Phono Stage - My experience with phono stages is limited. Definitely avoid joint MM/MC stages given your price constraints - better to get a higher quality MM stage. If you can stretch to its price, the Firestone Audio Korora is recommended. I have used the Creek OBH18 with success for some years and it sells at a good price - lots of other budget recomendations out there...

3) Strong bass - you might well like the Shure of the above options....

4) Don't worry about that issue - line contact styli give better results for worn records (well for all records really) - but your budget will focus you on elipticals. - Don't settle for a spherical/conical. If you can stretch the budget to a HyperEliptical / Shibata / FineLine / Line Contact type needle do it, the lifetime of the stylus will be around double the lifetime of an eliptical.... swings and roundabouts it may end up cheaper in the long run as well as sounding better.

I would go for the Shure M97xE, preferably get a phono stage with adjustable cartridge loading if at all possible and set the loading at 62k - optimum for the M97xE. (the Firestone Korora is such a Phono stage, but may be beyond your budget)
Another alternative might be a used M95/97 body with something like a Jico or Ed Saunders stylus - might scrape into the budget, while allowing a HyperEliptical stylus (maybe.... might be a touch over budget)


Bye for now

David
 
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:jawdrop:

I have so much to learn ...

Sorry if I made you think I owned a Technics SL 1200 turntable (I wish I did !) but in fact I have CEC ST 520.

I was lucky enough to find the service manual for it. There's a very good exploded view of the TT so I think I will start off by correcting the sluggish tonearm (clean + re-lube).

Again, thanks for all the information dlaloum !!! :yes:
 
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