Fisher amps have high distortion?
- Thread starter tonyg88
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A comment with no context for reference is basically worthless. What model? What power level? Restored? What frequency? What type of distortion was being commented on? Both channels driven (if stereo), etc.?
I could say the ride in my Chevrolet is horrible, and it would leave you with just as many questions, and be just as worthless a comment as well, because absolutely no context is provided.
Dave
I could say the ride in my Chevrolet is horrible, and it would leave you with just as many questions, and be just as worthless a comment as well, because absolutely no context is provided.
Dave
tonyg88
Super Member
After this comment I am not going to even bother with the person who said it after this last statement:
Tim D
Super Member
Not that this is about specs, but a measurement such as distortion doesn't tell you that you aren't going to like how it sounds.
I have stopped looking at specs and use my ears to tell me what I like. Specs are misleading and don't always give a clear indication as to how goood it will sound. Spent my youth comparing specs on receivers, amps, speakers, turntables, etc.... I'm happier now and I'm not missing the specs at all. Dont get me wrong. I want to know in general terms how much power my amp is going to output, but for me that just gives me a rule-of-thumb as to how loud it might get in comparison to my other amps.
I have stopped looking at specs and use my ears to tell me what I like. Specs are misleading and don't always give a clear indication as to how goood it will sound. Spent my youth comparing specs on receivers, amps, speakers, turntables, etc.... I'm happier now and I'm not missing the specs at all. Dont get me wrong. I want to know in general terms how much power my amp is going to output, but for me that just gives me a rule-of-thumb as to how loud it might get in comparison to my other amps.
Vacuum tube amps are always going to have higher distortion than transistor amps for two reasons.
First, tube amps are firing a stream of electrons across at least half an inch (more like an inch in many cases) against a grid that blocks the flow except to amplify the small voltages applied to it (so that the small signal is amplified). This electron "beam" is sensitive to electric fields, back-scatter, and internal reflections in that relatively large space. Transistor interfaces are on the micron level (although this does other things that affect distortion, notably clipping effects which are rather different than clipping effects in tube amps). Grids and plates can vibrate, too, and have resonance frequencies.
The other "source" of distortion in tube amps is the lack of feedback circuits to diminish it. It's not impossible, but I suspect the number of tubes and power required to accomplish this, along with the very limited selection of tubes and severe lack of research and production of specialized tubes means it's not gonna happen. A tube amp with the sort of circuitry in a high end transistor amp would be huge and generate an amazing amount of heat. Tube based computers required rather astonishing amounts of cooling to prevent the solder from melting after all.
This is not a comment on the quality of tube amps. Quite a few people prefer the sound of them, so the distortion inherent in the physics of tube amplifiers isn't "bad", but it is far higher than a comparable transistor amp. Tube amps usually run 1% THD and up, these days transistor amps run 0.05% THD and LESS, a huge difference.
Purely a matter of taste and the type of sound you prefer. I like my amps to turn my CDs and vinyl and radio broadcast signals into sound with no change from the original beside higher amplitude ("a wire with gain" so to speak) so the original isn't altered. Other people prefer a "warm" sound, etc. Nothing wrong with that at all!
First, tube amps are firing a stream of electrons across at least half an inch (more like an inch in many cases) against a grid that blocks the flow except to amplify the small voltages applied to it (so that the small signal is amplified). This electron "beam" is sensitive to electric fields, back-scatter, and internal reflections in that relatively large space. Transistor interfaces are on the micron level (although this does other things that affect distortion, notably clipping effects which are rather different than clipping effects in tube amps). Grids and plates can vibrate, too, and have resonance frequencies.
The other "source" of distortion in tube amps is the lack of feedback circuits to diminish it. It's not impossible, but I suspect the number of tubes and power required to accomplish this, along with the very limited selection of tubes and severe lack of research and production of specialized tubes means it's not gonna happen. A tube amp with the sort of circuitry in a high end transistor amp would be huge and generate an amazing amount of heat. Tube based computers required rather astonishing amounts of cooling to prevent the solder from melting after all.
This is not a comment on the quality of tube amps. Quite a few people prefer the sound of them, so the distortion inherent in the physics of tube amplifiers isn't "bad", but it is far higher than a comparable transistor amp. Tube amps usually run 1% THD and up, these days transistor amps run 0.05% THD and LESS, a huge difference.
Purely a matter of taste and the type of sound you prefer. I like my amps to turn my CDs and vinyl and radio broadcast signals into sound with no change from the original beside higher amplitude ("a wire with gain" so to speak) so the original isn't altered. Other people prefer a "warm" sound, etc. Nothing wrong with that at all!
jvstratman
Well-Known Member
I'll take the "Warm" sound over SS.
My Kenwood KR 8010 results in headaches from listening fatigue where as my Fisher 400's allow me to listen for long periods of time at louder levels. I've paired my Hpm 100's with the Kenwood and the Fishers. I've also paired my Forte's with both receivers. It's not a problem with the Kenwood either. It's been that way since I purchased it new in the 70's.
Tubes allow me to hear tiny nuances I didn't realize were on the media. There's really no contest IMHO.
My Kenwood KR 8010 results in headaches from listening fatigue where as my Fisher 400's allow me to listen for long periods of time at louder levels. I've paired my Hpm 100's with the Kenwood and the Fishers. I've also paired my Forte's with both receivers. It's not a problem with the Kenwood either. It's been that way since I purchased it new in the 70's.
Tubes allow me to hear tiny nuances I didn't realize were on the media. There's really no contest IMHO.
Lol, some of those "nuances" may in fact not be on the media!
Listen to what you like! I prefer the clean sound from DC coupled SS amps and find tube amps blurry. At least the distortion on tube amps is higher order, unlike some SS amps I have heard where the audible (at least to me anyway) high frequency screech drove me out of the room.
Listen to what you like! I prefer the clean sound from DC coupled SS amps and find tube amps blurry. At least the distortion on tube amps is higher order, unlike some SS amps I have heard where the audible (at least to me anyway) high frequency screech drove me out of the room.
jvstratman
Well-Known Member
I'd much rather have the system put a smile on my face rather having to turn it off from listening fatigue.
To each his own.
To each his own.
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whoaru99
Epic Member
Certainly your right, but why? While you may not like to hear it, what I read certainly isn't implausible nor way out in left field. And, it seems to me like the poster is saying "but so what, I like it anyway".
tonyg88
Super Member
Agreed but he also said fisher only had "few models" which isn't true when I asked what model he tested.... He didn't give me a clear answer. It could be some a fisher model from the late 70s for all i know. And if it was something from the 60s I would have asked was it properly recapped etc.
jvstratman
Well-Known Member
"Lol, some of those "nuances" may in fact not be on the media!"
I'm referring to hearing musical instrument nuances on recordings from the 50's, 60's 70's, etc. amplified by tube amps btw.
I'm referring to hearing musical instrument nuances on recordings from the 50's, 60's 70's, etc. amplified by tube amps btw.
tonyg88
Super Member
The way the wall of sound works it definitely sounds better on my tube equipment. I feel like Ronnie spector and the Crystals are in the room with me.
ConradH
Lunatic Member
AFAICT, all small "console" type tube amps in the 5-10 watt range have high THD and really poor power delivery at low frequencies. Don't believe me, just make some power measurements at 20-30 Hz and look at the waveforms. It's just the nature of the small transformers and simple circuit designs. No doubt one could do better with a bit more complexity, but they didn't. Larger amps do tend to be better. That said, they can sound very pleasant under the right conditions.
