Fluance vs. AT Turntable (New Kid on The Block, vs. The Corner Kid)

[hotrodman21]

Hey everyone, boy has it been awhile since I've poked my head in here! Feels good to be back...
When we last spoke, I was restoring my vintage Pioneer PL-50. To keep the story short, after oodles of help from all of you guys here, fixing, and improving on a few things on my dinky highschool budget at McDonalds. You guys suggested fantastic budget carts, and alignment tips. The only thing I couldn't get working like new on it was the darned auto-return on it.
After getting a better job, I decided it was finally time. I took it into my local repair shop, Gibson's TV on Gratiot, and a few bucks later, it works like new. To celebrate, I decided to drop a few more bucks, and pick up a nice cart for it, purchasing the 2M Red, I'm sure you guys know plenty about. Life was good.
Then, for a bit, life took over... College began, and sucked me dry, and I put aside vinyl for awhile, in hopes of a brighter future.

Life has calmed a bit... While still in college, I'm slowly finding different bands that I believed would sound cool on vinyl, and be super cool to be able to drop the stylus on once again. So, I went on a "spending spree" to celebrate finals well done... However, coming back to the turntable I always knew and loved, there's still a sound to be desired here.

I've poured hours upon hours into aligning, and restoring this table, and hundreds of dollars. Yet, it still distorts.

Oh, I'm going to come back to it, but, after speaking with my, now, buddies at Gibson's. They suggested to make it a project, and instead invest in a nice new deck. With the money, I've decided to go through with it.

To help with my decision, what better place to come to than my dudes (and dudets) back at the fourm that has served me so well over the years...

So, my friends as AK, I pose the question. What turntables should I be looking at? As you can tell by the title, I have it narrowed down between these two decks.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F2EXIFM/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I2M2ZWGZFJ1ZZA&colid=3R1QHM3ANT5PH

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002S1CJ2Q/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I3FH37JVC1A7O0&colid=3R1QHM3ANT5PH

So, as you guys can see by the two posts, and, once again, from the title of the post, these are the two I have come across with a bit of research.

I like the "S Shaped" tonearm idea from the Fluance. Plus, it's damn beautiful. But, I have read a few bad reviews about it in the past.

Which, is what led me to what appears to be the "house" brand. Audio Technica... If I'm being honest, the only reason I've picked this deck in particular, is it was on a one-star review for the Fluance to link people to a better turntable for the money.

So, I pose to you AudioKarma... What should I get? I'm finally going to splurge for myself, and grab something that isn't twenty bucks. I'm open to any other ideas as well, I greatly appreciate it.

See, I built a 5.1 system from scratch, hand picking each component over the course of a year, so I wanted a turntable to top it off...

When it comes to what I will be playing on these, it varies by the day. With my collection approaching 1,100 albums, and around 500 45's it all depends on my mood.
From Dire Straits, to Frank Sinatra, to Miles Davis, to used, beat to hell Cream albums, to brand new pressings of Offspring, and Avenged Sevenfold, to Willie Nelson, Kenny Rogers, John Coltrane, to Bob Dylan, to symphony box-sets, to movie scores, Gordon Lightfoot, Bob Seger, Zeppelin, all the way down to used Ray Charles LP's I could only find on Discogs.
A little of everything crosses the platter at any given time.


As always, thank you guys so much for any responses, I will try to keep up on responses as best as I can...


Take it easy,

Brandon

 

[dcmfan]

Which, is what led me to what appears to be the "house" brand. Audio Technica... If I'm being honest, the only reason I've picked this deck in particular, is it was on a one-star review for the Fluance to link people to a better turntable for the money.

Of the two you list, I'd lean towards the AT. But - for not a lot more money you could pick up a fully restored Dual from www.FixMyDual and have a well regarded, fully automatic, vintage table that's been completely restored and is ready to go. There are plenty of other options on the used market, but I gather that you are looking for something that would be either new or fully serviced to avoid trouble right out of the gate.

With 1,100 albums you've got way more than $ 300 invested in your collection and I think it would be worth spending a little bit more to have a table that could potentially last decades.

 

[hotrodman21]

Of the two you list, I'd lean towards the AT. But - for not a lot more money you could pick up a fully restored Dual from www.FixMyDual and have a well regarded, fully automatic, vintage table that's been completely restored and is ready to go. There are plenty of other options on the used market, but I gather that you are looking for something that would be either new or fully serviced to avoid trouble right out of the gate.

With 1,100 albums you've got way more than $ 300 invested in your collection and I think it would be worth spending a little bit more to have a table that could potentially last decades.

You would be absolutely correct in this statement. I would love a vintage deck, but, I still have plans of restoring mine somewhere soon down the road. It's definitely a solid deck, just instead of pouring more cash into the deck, for questionable results, I've decided to buy one new.

For Now...

 

[dcmfan]

You would be absolutely correct in this statement. I would love a vintage deck, but, I still have plans of restoring mine somewhere soon down the road. It's definitely a solid deck, just instead of pouring more cash into the deck, for questionable results, I've decided to buy one new.

For Now...

Nothing wrong with that! Your'e almost at the point of an entry level Music Hall, Rega or ProJect table and I like all of those better than the AT frankly. You might have luck finding a demo model in your price range with full warranty by searching for "B-Stock Turntable" online.

I don't know that the AT is bad, mind you, but I think it's a table you'll probably look to replace in a year or two.

 

[hotrodman21]

Nothing wrong with that! Your'e almost at the point of an entry level Music Hall, Rega or ProJect table and I like all of those better than the AT frankly. You might have luck finding a demo model in your price range with full warranty by searching for "B-Stock Turntable" online.

I don't know that the AT is bad, mind you, but I think it's a table you'll probably look to replace in a year or two.

Hey! These look pretty great! I honestly haven't heard of these brands before! I'll check around!

Thanks so much.

 

[EngineerNate]

I bought my dad a Music Hall MMF 2.2 and he loves it. They're going for ~$300 right now and have quite a nice tonearm/cartridge combo from the factory. Buy from Music Direct, they were great.

 

[pyoung272]

Do you know why your current table distorts? Worn stylus? Worn records? The reason for my question is that the pioneer pl-50 looks to be a decent table and moving to the two tables you mentioned may be just a lateral move. If I was in your shoes, I would try to determine why you are hearing distortion from the current table and address that problem. I would then spend funds on a record cleaning system such as a VPI 16.5.

 

[beat_truck]

Do you know why your current table distorts? Worn stylus? Worn records? The reason for my question is that the pioneer pl-50 looks to be a decent table and moving to the two tables you mentioned may be just a lateral move. If I was in your shoes, I would try to determine why you are hearing distortion from the current table and address that problem.

This.
I would fix the Pioneer instead of spending $300+ on a new TT that likely won't be as good as what you already have.

 

[EngineerNate]

I didn't read thoroughly enough the first time. That table looks gorgeous and will perform on par or better with anything you'll get under $300 new. I'm sure the distortion is solvable.

 

[jeffpaletz]

Ditto, the Pioneer is a very nice table, nicer than either of the two you are looking at. Work on fixing it.

 

[hotrodman21]

Do you know why your current table distorts? Worn stylus? Worn records? The reason for my question is that the pioneer pl-50 looks to be a decent table and moving to the two tables you mentioned may be just a lateral move. If I was in your shoes, I would try to determine why you are hearing distortion from the current table and address that problem. I would then spend funds on a record cleaning system such as a VPI 16.5.

See, that's the issue.

I cannot begin to express the hours of work I've put into stopping the distortion on this old gal. I replaced the stylus on the cart I originally had for it. (The PC-35) to no avail. I bought a NEW cartridge, on the cheap, a new Audio Tech cart, for around 25 bucks. Nothing. I replaced the conical stylus that came with it, thinking it was causing sibilance. Nope. New pre-amp that wasn't a 20 dollar piece of junk from Pyle? Sure! Nothing. New mechanism entirely, repaired professionally? (This is where Gibson's Comes into play) It worked like new, auto-return and all. Still distorted at the end of the album. I thought I finally diagnosed it, being the cart. So I got the 2M Red. Thinking this would be the final nail in the coffin, I put that on, expecting perfect sound.
Still had IGD at the end of the album...

Yes, I've tried multiple albums, new and old. Nothing changes. With all of this, came hours of aligning to no avail.

This is a last stitch effort.

I just want to enjoy my vinyl for a while without worrying about distortion, or re-aligning because it doesn't sound right at the end, or is sibilant.

I will work on it down the road, but this was years of trying to no avail. Sure, it works fantastic. It's that damn distortion that I can't get out of my head.

 

[DustyOldPile]

Hi Hotrodman21! Welcome back.

Folks are giving you some pretty good advice here. For what you're after, you're not likely to find it in a new turntable south of $500. Even at $500, there's not much in a new turntable that would outperform a properly working and set up PL-50.

I don't know a great deal about the PL-50, it's one of Pioneer's earlier efforts, but I would think that it would perform much like Pioneer's other vintage tables. They made some of the best turntables of the period, usually a cut above many of their competitors. I've always liked their turntables a great deal, and have at one time or another owned over a dozen different models.

That all being said, let's do a reboot on this whole project and start from square one. What cartridge do you have on the PL-50 right now, what alignment geometry are you using, what tracking force, what phono preamp, what's the rest of your system like, etc? We need to get to the bottom of this problem and odds are, it's not the turntable. Turntables are pretty simple devices, overall. They have to turn at a precise speed, they have to not variate on speed, and they have to keep all motor noise and vibration isolated from the platter, so that the needle doesn't pick it up and transfer it to a signal. Not much in there for what we'd commonly call 'distortion'. For that matter, please describe the distortion, that may help us also.

 

[jrtrent]

I think a great next step would be taking some of your problematic records to an audio store that sells turntables and listening to their equipment to see if the albums play better for you. From the store you mentioned, it seem you live in the Detroit area. Doing a search for audio stores in the area brought up someone's recommendation of Audio Dimensions on Woodward Ave in Royal Oak. If they really are somewhat near you, or perhaps there are other stores you know of, you might give them a call, tell them your issues, and see if they can help you get into something enjoyable at a price you're comfortable with. I really think that you should audition options with your own ears before spending any more money.

P. S. Audio Dimensions is a Pro-Ject dealer and might be able to demonstrate the Essential II for you. Not the only option, of course, but I've listened to that model at a dealer near me and was very impressed with what it could do at the price (though I eventually settled on a Rega RP3 as best fitting my needs). The exposed belt and pulley means you can switch between 33 1/3 and 45 rpm records without having to remove the platter, which some consider an advantage. The most important thing, though, is to hear it, or any other option, for yourself first to make sure it really will be a solution for you, and not just more money down the drain.

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/en-us/ou...bles-and-tonearms/essential-line/essential-ii

https://www.whathifi.com/pro-ject/essential-ii/review

 

[FONSguy]

I think you have too used vinyl. Have you tried playing a record 'wet'??? Drizzle a little Deer park or similar water on the LP and drag a 2" x 2" piece of paper towel over the water to remove most of it. If the problem is at the inside, just do this on that track. make sure the stylus is clean. This will tell you a lot. No, or very little distortion, its a worn LP. Still happening, perhaps out of alignment cart, or you need more tracking force.

 

[DustyOldPile]

Again, the problem isn't the turntable. It's got to be in the signal path, or anything that would affect it. That starts with the stylus and it's relationship to the grooves (alignment, stylus design, cantilever, cartridge design, tonearm design, wires, etc) and goes on to the preamp, amplifier, speakers, cables and wires. Somewhere in there, you have a distorted signal. With the number of records you have, they can't all suck, so I doubt it's the vinyl itself. Making wide assumptions and throwing money at the problem will not solve the problem, unless you replace EVERYTHING. We need to be scientific and approach this problem thusly. Once we have narrowed down the issue, we can solve the problem.

 

[45rpmspinner]

Still distorted at the end of the album.

If this is the model with antiskate [PL 50a], then it sounds like the antiskate is either adjusted badly....or, as is too commonly the case, broken.

It's been 40 years since I owned one of these [my first nice table], but I believe there's a poorly designed plastic bit which loads the antiskate spring. That plastic bit tends to break.

Makes for generally poor tracking which gets increasingly worse as the tonearm moves towards the center of the record.

 

[EngineerNate]

If this is the model with antiskate [PL 50a], then it sounds like the antiskate is either adjusted badly....or, as is too commonly the case, broken.

It's been 40 years since I owned one of these [my first nice table], but I believe there's a poorly designed plastic bit which loads the antiskate spring. That plastic bit tends to break.

Makes for generally poor tracking which gets increasingly worse as the tonearm moves towards the center of the record.

If it is the table, this is the likely culprit.

OP-Where are yo located? Maybe an AK member could help you diagnose.

 

[DustyOldPile]

I don't know. A lot of tables don't even have anti-skate. It sounds more like a tracking or a signal problem to me.

If it is a consideration, you could always do a DIY solution and bypass the stock antiskate entirely. Something along the lines of the "fishing weight" antiskate as found on some earlier Sansui arms. Frankly, those work better than the dial-type anyway...which are notoriously inaccurate.

 

[45rpmspinner]

Whereas you might think the antiskate would be disabled when that piece breaks, it's actually more like the spring binds in the tonearm. Depending on the tonearm weight used it may also start to skip when it shouldn't.

The condition I'm describing is much different, and much worse, than what you might associate having no antiskate all. In fact, it's more like having the antiskate turned up way beyond "max".

Fyi, I've long run AR TT's........

 

[hotrodman21]

Hi Hotrodman21! Welcome back.

Folks are giving you some pretty good advice here. For what you're after, you're not likely to find it in a new turntable south of $500. Even at $500, there's not much in a new turntable that would outperform a properly working and set up PL-50.

I don't know a great deal about the PL-50, it's one of Pioneer's earlier efforts, but I would think that it would perform much like Pioneer's other vintage tables. They made some of the best turntables of the period, usually a cut above many of their competitors. I've always liked their turntables a great deal, and have at one time or another owned over a dozen different models.

That all being said, let's do a reboot on this whole project and start from square one. What cartridge do you have on the PL-50 right now, what alignment geometry are you using, what tracking force, what phono preamp, what's the rest of your system like, etc? We need to get to the bottom of this problem and odds are, it's not the turntable. Turntables are pretty simple devices, overall. They have to turn at a precise speed, they have to not variate on speed, and they have to keep all motor noise and vibration isolated from the platter, so that the needle doesn't pick it up and transfer it to a signal. Not much in there for what we'd commonly call 'distortion'. For that matter, please describe the distortion, that may help us also.

Definitely a fantastic table, one of the better ones for its time!

So, let's roll through the equipment.

I'm rolling a 2M Red on the table currently, running to a brand new Ortofon headshell. (The original headshell's solder failed just the other day.) This pipes through brand new RCA cable leads put on by Gibson's. These plug into a TCC-750LC, as suggested by you folks.

This is where things get interesting, I have an RCA switchbox coming off of the preamp which can be switched to my receiver, which pumps out to multiple rooms at the flick of the channel switch, one switch that leads straight into my 16-Channel mixer, to record any signal coming off of it to my PC. (An ElectroVoice BK-1642 for those curious) Then, one more switch that leads into my headphone amp next to my listening room sofa. This runs into Marshall Monitor headphones, which runs to Me, in a Snuggie. But, that's beside the point. The receiver end, runs into a new Sony amp. Nothing special really, I need to track down a decent vintage one, and for Pioneer heritage reasons, the SX series looks pretty cool. Depending on which switch I run, it could also run out to the living room surround. Which I hand picked, with Edifier speakers, a Pioneer 4k receiver (For the TV surround) A hand built center speaker, made from plywood, and Pioneer Car speakers I found at a garage sale. (Sounds much better than you would think) A brand new Polk Powered Sub, and, I swap the wires between the Rear Surround, and the Sony receiver, as the speakers run a double duty depending on where I'm listening.

If that all makes sense. Let's move on.

The way it's aligned! I bought a digital scale, and the cartridge is running at exactly 2.8 Grams on the scale.I bought an alignment scale on Amazon, unfortunately, I couldn't tell you what system it's using... It appears aligned, but I don't know which scale to use from the fourms.

A point was brought up that I forgot completely. Anti-Skate.

So, my anti-skate worked about six months ago. Then, I believed it was wrong. So I messed with the little guy. It broke. This is when I had the entire auto-return mechanism restored. 200 dollars later, and she's home. Working anti-skate, but I am unable to turn it without breaking it, according to the technician so it has gone "un-messed-with" since, around February.

I believe one of the wires may be providing resistance within the deck, providing tension against the tonearm as it goes across the LP.


I know for sure the albums aren't damaged, as it does it with the brand new albums I purchased a week ago. (Bob Seger, Ride Out) Wrapped in shrink, new from Amazon.

As for the stylus being dirty, if there is any visable fuzz, or dust I gently blow it off before play. However, I don't believe this is a great method, I keep meaning to pick up a brush for it.


Hope all of this helps thanks for the fantastic responses everyone!