Fluance vs. AT Turntable (New Kid on The Block, vs. The Corner Kid)

[hotrodman21]

The experience of narrowing down the distortion is worth more than anything., and what is lost in some of todays newcomers, if you have not yet searched things like VTA by a simple shimming , and also check all adjustments available to cart alignment. it can be fixed , we have all taken that road. research , learn , clean records, dirty needle, inner groove distortion, anti skate , this is owning a turntable, good results will be a great feeling. there is a problem you have not improved yet. even if you get a new table, improve the pioneer, The AT table has ALL the adjustments needed for getting your best sound and can take a lot of abuse. Look a little deeper when comparing the 2 tables.

I would never abandon my old gal, but, at this point, I'm focused more on what's still wrong with the table, and sound tests than I am just enjoying analog. Records have been my love for many years, and so has this deck. People always ask me "why don't you spend that 300 dollars on something useful, like a new phone? Or, save up for that laptop you could use for school?" I always look at them blankly, and ask "why would I buy one of those things, if I don't really care about them?" The magic thing to me about vinyl, is it bridges gaps between generations. I can talk to my uncle whom is significantly older than I about the new Ray Charles album I just bought, and he always has some sort of story to accompany my news. Meanwhile, I can speak to my father about the new Beastie Boys LP, or the new Rage Against The Machine album I bought and he has a story about it. It's truly magical to me and is one of the few things the young generation can speak to the generations of the past about, and always find common ground.

The point is, I really love this music, it's my life. So, my ample record collection should be something I come home to with pride, and can indulge in dropping the needle, and slip away after a hard day. But, it hasn't been that for a long time, with the problems simply adding up with this deck. I've been through the struggles, and the triumphs, of this old gal, and had it not work completely twice. It's been a long while since I've been able to ignore the IGD, or the sibilance to it. That. Is what I'm looking to return to with this idea of the new turntable. I don't just have the money laying around, burning a hole in my pocket, there are much better things I could put the money towards, like my next semester of college, or my car resto project (1965 Plymouth Satellite for those curious) but, I decided to put it towards the turntable, for one last hurrah for a while, so I can stop worrying, and simply enjoy the music again.

 

[hotrodman21]

So, I did a quick crop from the service manual, and this is the tone-arm assembly. I can't make out a way to access the anti-skate to disable it. (I'm going to clean stuff first, and weight it properly) But, while I have a few seconds, I figured I would sneak a peek.
Here's the crop.

 

[tw1st]

I never successfully got to that point with a pivoted arm turntable or conical stylus, though others have.

It is not surprising you had issues with IGD before upgrading to the 2M Red - even on my linear tracker I could hear the loss of definition and increased distortion with a conical as it neared the inner grooves. I would argue that if you are hyper-sensitive to sibilance and the like, that an even more advanced stylus profile should eventually be in order. I wasn't happy until I paired my linear tracker with Shure's well-regarded later offerings.

The idea right now is to first rule out the very basic possible reasons for your issues - things that will follow you to any other turntable & cartridge, such as proper VTF & alignment, stylus cleaning habits, etc.

If it persists, and there is indeed something else going on with your turntable itself, then that is a different conversation.

Last question - how old and more importantly, how much use has the 2M Red seen?

 

[hotrodman21]

I never successfully got to that point with a pivoted arm turntable or conical stylus, though others have.

It is not surprising you had issues with IGD before upgrading to the 2M Red - even on my linear tracker I could hear the loss of definition and increased distortion with a conical as it neared the inner grooves. I would argue that if you are hyper-sensitive to sibilance and the like, that an even more advanced stylus profile should eventually be in order. I wasn't happy until I paired my linear tracker with Shure's well-regarded later offerings.

The idea right now is to first rule out the very basic possible reasons for your issues - things that will follow you to any other turntable & cartridge, such as proper VTF & alignment, stylus cleaning habits, etc.

If it persists, and there is indeed something else going on with your turntable itself, then that is a different conversation.

Last question - how old and more importantly, how much use has the 2M Red seen?

The 2M has hardly seen any action since I bought it. I believe I got it as treat for myself after doing well on my previous finals. I believe I got it in May. Which probably saw a bit of use. I then stepped away from vinyl in the summer. If I had to put a number to it, I would say its gotten around 15-25 hours of use.

Could you link me to these new Shure offerings for my personal records, this way, down the road, I have something I can shoot for after a bit of time?

The 2M also runs an elliptical stylus.

 

[hotrodman21]

I never successfully got to that point with a pivoted arm turntable or conical stylus, though others have.

This actually makes me feel much better. I know analog is kinda finicky, but I'm glad to hear it's not just me. As I felt (at least for my demographic) I kind of knew what I was doing. Glad to hear there are things to improve upon!

 

[tw1st]

At that low of hours, there probably isn't too much gunk on the stylus, though it should still be cleaned. Who knows, simply dialing in the VTF may solve your problems, though I suspect alignment needs to be looked at again as well. The tool I linked to generate an arc protractor is very helpful.

The Shure cartridges I was referring to are all vintage - they don't make 'em like they used to. My newest cartridge is from the early 80s.

 

[hotrodman21]

At that low of hours, there probably isn't too much gunk on the stylus, though it should still be cleaned. Who knows, simply dialing in the VTF may solve your problems, though I suspect alignment needs to be looked at again as well. The tool I linked to generate an arc protractor is very helpful.

The Shure cartridges I was referring to are all vintage - they don't make 'em like they used to. My newest cartridge is from the early 80s.

Now, my final question...

There are multiple alignment "systems" from "Stevenson" to "The Idiot Protractors" which should I use to generate the best result?

That's what I thought, I didn't believe Shure produced anything new that was too well regarded... Can you name a few model numbers on those Shure's by chance?

 

[hotrodman21]

Now, my final question...

There are multiple alignment "systems" from "Stevenson" to "The Idiot Protractors" which should I use to generate the best result?

That's what I thought, I didn't believe Shure produced anything new that was too well regarded... Can you name a few model numbers on those Shure's by chance?

Holy crap, this is an actual application for the alignment generation, instead of simple protractors from VinylEngine.
It looks a tad complex, but I believe I can figure it out.
Thanks a bunch!

 

[tw1st]

I only recommended Stevenson because it features a null point nearest to the inner tracks, which is where we want to focus (at least for now). If you can measure - or look up online - the pivot to spindle distance, you can punch it in and generate a protractor.

Shure cartridges, in no real order:

V15 Type IV (and III, and V)
M97HE
M95HE
ML120HE / ML140HE

...basically anything with an original, genuine Shure HE or MR stylus. Expect to pay a decent amount for these, however, with the MR commanding a much higher price.

For more modern alternatives, I've read good things (but haven't personally tried) Audio Technica's now-discontinued AT440MLA & B (and possibly the model that superseded these, the VM540ML)

 

[hotrodman21]

I only recommended Stevenson because it features a null point nearest to the inner tracks, which is where we want to focus (at least for now). If you can measure - or look up online - the pivot to spindle distance, you can punch it in and generate a protractor.

Shure cartridges, in no real order:

V15 Type IV (and III, and V)
M97HE
M95HE
ML120HE / ML140HE

...basically anything with an original, genuine Shure HE or MR stylus. Expect to pay a decent amount for these, however, with the MR commanding a much higher price.

For more modern alternatives, I've read good things (but haven't personally tried) Audio Technica's now-discontinued AT440MLA & B (and possibly the model that superseded these, the VM540ML)

Okay.

One more question y'all.

On my way out to Kroger now, what kind of ME am I looking for here?

 

[EngineerNate]

Okay.

One more question y'all.

On my way out to Kroger now, what kind of ME am I looking for here?

The most basic version.

 

[DustyOldPile]

People always ask me "why don't you spend that 300 dollars on something useful, like a new phone?

Bwahahahahaha! Stop it, you're killing me!!!!

 

[tw1st]

On my way out to Kroger now, what kind of ME am I looking for here?

Let us say a prayer for hotrodman21, who went off to the Kroger and never returned...

 

[hotrodman21]

Let us say a prayer for hotrodman21, who went off to the Kroger and never returned...

I swear I'm alive. But, thanks for the prayer anyways.

It sure looks like the ME worked, and worked well! I looked at the stylus, and even under a magnifying glass, it appears clean.

Yet. Distortion stays.

Since I was at home, instead of gripe to you guys about this, and that, I took an audio sample.

Uncompressed WAV File, coming at'cha!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nn7qkudh66csrkb/Audiokarma Test.wav?dl=0

 

[hotrodman21]

I swear I'm alive. But, thanks for the prayer anyways.

It sure looks like the ME worked, and worked well! I looked at the stylus, and even under a magnifying glass, it appears clean.

Yet. Distortion stays.

Since I was at home, instead of gripe to you guys about this, and that, I took an audio sample.

Uncompressed WAV File, coming at'cha!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nn7qkudh66csrkb/Audiokarma Test.wav?dl=0

And, one more test for good measure, to be thorough, and, as with any good thread, pics or it didn't happen.

I took the rubber mat off, since it had protruding "3D" rubber lines around the full mat, and would wrinkle the paper, and cause an in-accurate measurement... The stylus is dead center on the center dot in each shot.
(accidentally attached a dupe shot of the collection)

 

[tw1st]

I would recommend rechecking the alignment with the mat & a record on - the difference in thickness when you actually play records vs. your platter with no record or mat is substantial.

Is your cantilever straight in the body? If not, you should be aligning to the cantilever instead - this is more difficult however.

Lastly, in a few photos the cartridge looks to be slightly rotated on the vertical axis. I don't mean laterally in the headshell -- that looks to be necessary for the alignment -- but one side of the stylus body next to the cantilever appears closer to the paper surface than the other. This could just be due to the camera angle, but it may not. Does the stylus appear "up and down" in the groove or is it tilted at all?

What pivot to spindle distance did you use to generate a protractor with Conrad's tool? I couldn't find the figure for your PL-50, only the effective length of 224 mm.

Also, is your platter level? If you don't have a bubble level, you can use an iPhone - swipe right while in the compass app to get to the level mode.

Lastly, it appears that your TT has a built-in "overhang index stand" - see below. Did you ever try to align the cartridge and stylus to this? It is a very basic method but I'd be curious to see how everything sounds set up to the recommended overhang. Note: if you do this, it is one or the other. You won't be able to align to the overhang stand and the protractor.

 

[hotrodman21]

I would recommend rechecking the alignment with the mat & a record on - the difference in thickness when you actually play records vs. your platter with no record or mat is substantial.

Is your cantilever straight in the body? If not, you should be aligning to the cantilever instead - this is more difficult however.

Lastly, in a few photos the cartridge looks to be slightly rotated on the vertical axis. I don't mean laterally in the headshell -- that looks to be necessary for the alignment -- but one side of the stylus body next to the cantilever appears closer to the paper surface than the other. This could just be due to the camera angle, but it may not. Does the stylus appear "up and down" in the groove or is it tilted at all?

What pivot to spindle distance did you use to generate a protractor with Conrad's tool? I couldn't find the figure for your PL-50, only the effective length of 224 mm.

Also, is your platter level? If you don't have a bubble level, you can use an iPhone - swipe right while in the compass app to get to the level mode.

Lastly, it appears that your TT has a built-in "overhang index stand" - see below. Did you ever try to align the cartridge and stylus to this? It is a very basic method but I'd be curious to see how everything sounds set up to the recommended overhang. Note: if you do this, it is one or the other. You won't be able to align to the overhang stand and the protractor.

View attachment 1031115

Holy sh*t!

I completely forgot about that overhang adjustment line!

I used to worship that little guy, checking it almost every night before I would spin. After I actually purchased an alignment protractor from Amazon, I guess my brain just forgot about the little fella! I checked it right before heading to bed last night, and sure enough, it was far from correct.

I bought a bubble level right when we moved into the new place, checked it once when I set the table up, and forgot about it. I'll do that as well tonight.

See, I couldn't find any documentation on the distance required for the protractor, so I decided against measuring myself, and simply printed out the Stevenson protractor from VE. I believe you mentioned this as well.

I had recently taken the headshell off of the tonearm, to have a close look at it, and may have accidentally rotated the headshell upon putting it back on it. I usually always check that, I guess it was a long day yesterday, and I forgot to check that. Other than that, it's normally perfectly straight in the grooves to my eyes.

Finally, you mentioned with the mention of the overhang adjustment, it's "one or the other." What do you mean by this, I think I know what you mean, but what I'm unsure on, is how to know if the cart is aligned? It's a simple red light with an indent in it, with white paint within the indent, so I realize the stylus needs to fit within that simple groove, so, should I align the cart to be parallel with the direction of the light? Or, should I cross check it with the protractor?

I have no idea where to start with cantiliever. That sounds like an incredibly delicate procedure that I don't believe I could get my camera to focus on for pictures.



Responses on my end around 4 (EST) as that's when my final class lets out. I look forward to your responses guys! I believe you guys have just saved me three hundred bucks!

 

[isotopesope]

you have to be careful printing out protractors; be sure to measure the scale line to be positive it was printed at the right size. when i printed these, it took a few scale adjustments to get it to print out at the exact true size.

i know i am late to the party, but i would definitely blame end of record distortion to alignment issues.

 

[tw1st]

Finally, you mentioned with the mention of the overhang adjustment, it's "one or the other." What do you mean by this, I think I know what you mean, but what I'm unsure on, is how to know if the cart is aligned? It's a simple red light with an indent in it, with white paint within the indent, so I realize the stylus needs to fit within that simple groove, so, should I align the cart to be parallel with the direction of the light? Or, should I cross check it with the protractor?

What I mean is that unless Pioneer used the exact same Stevenson alignment when designing that overhang gauge (which would be unlikely, and since you said already that it is way off I think we can confirm that they did not), you will not be able to align the cartridge to both. If you set it up according to the paper protractor, it will be off from the overhang gauge, and vice versa. Think of setting the overhang as a simple way to align the cartridge - it is not always perfect but it is what the manufacturer originally intended. This doesn't necessarily make it the best choice for you, however, but it may be able to take the alignment out of the equation so we can diagnose this distortion issue.

And a photo of the front of the cartridge with the cantilever visible should be enough to get an idea.

 

[hotrodman21]

What I mean is that unless Pioneer used the exact same Stevenson alignment when designing that overhang gauge (which would be unlikely, and since you said already that it is way off I think we can confirm that they did not), you will not be able to align the cartridge to both. If you set it up according to the paper protractor, it will be off from the overhang gauge, and vice versa. Think of setting the overhang as a simple way to align the cartridge - it is not always perfect but it is what the manufacturer originally intended. This doesn't necessarily make it the best choice for you, however, but it may be able to take the alignment out of the equation so we can diagnose this distortion issue.

And a photo of the front of the cartridge with the cantilever visible should be enough to get an idea.

Got it, I'll grab that, and adjust as soon as I get home. Gimmie just a few hours.

Should I align the cart to be parallel to the side walls of the "little red light?" I feel while the lateral tracking distance would be corrected, as long as the stylus falls into that groove, the horizontal tracking may be off. Maybe I'm overanalyzing...