cubby01
aka Buck
I have a hard time believing that. But then again, when I was in school going from "You oughtin bring a sheet of paper." to "You ought to bring a sheet of paper." would still be considered moving in the right direction.
For anyone studying English verb tenses....
- Thread starter Mr English
- Start date
I have a hard time believing that. But then again, when I was in school going from "You oughtin bring a sheet of paper." to "You ought to bring a sheet of paper." would still be considered moving in the right direction.
Strangeband
AK Member and Ale Monger
When I taught ESL, the students would always struggle with idioms. We had a second text devoted just to idioms. I remember trying to get the concept of "when" across to a Japanese student during an after hours event as I was filling his glass with beer. He got it at the expense of having to clean up a bit of a mess.
OK - what was not clear to me was the relationship of the elements in the upper left box - now I understand there isn't any intended, they are just the available elements. So, that is indicated by the jumbled placement. (Right?) Personally, I would not have got that idea without your later explanation. So, why not just list the elements and say "The elements, in no particular order:"
Also, I now think I understand that this page doesn't say anywhere what the verb forms 1, 2, and 3 are. I think that would have been much clearer to us if you told us it was explained elsewhere in your class material. In fact, I think the content of the box would be much clearer if instead of the note outside the box that the numbers 1, 2, 3 are the verb forms, you put in the box three parenthetical phrases (verb form 1) (verb form 2) (verb form 3).
Now to the lower left box: Are A, B, and C just for enumeration of the constructions? I kept looking for the meaning of A, B, and C. I think you intend to convey that there are three basic constructions, perfect, passive and continuous. If so, why don't you use a colon instead of a bullet:
A: have + 3 ...(perfect construction)
Drybasement
Hold the ketchup...
"You should bring a sheet of paper."
That to me is grammatically correct.
"You ought to bring a piece of paper" while correct with the Brits, sounds rather weird. I guess that's the difference between British English and American English.
Screw it. Whatever works.
Mr English
Recycled toy cars
Thanks for the feedback!
I was wondering how this would be seen as a standalone item without me leading a student through it.
The elements are mixed up so a student has to look for them as they crop up in discussion, spending more time looking at them all and getting the point that we don't use many elements to construct verb tenses. I don't use this system with beginners, but usually with youngsters who are midway through high school and struggling with the material.
Regarding the '1 2 3' representation of the verb forms, I tell the students what's going on with this, but for a standalone it would be better to incorporate your suggestion.
I have no idea why I used a bullet
. A colon would be better, or maybe an = symbol. I will edit the picture and upload it soon, taking into account your suggestions.
The main aim of this is to give a student a proper perspective on how the tenses are constructed. I feel that a student who has covered all this at school would be able to make sense of it as it stands, but there's always room for improvement.
I get them to look for a verb construction in their school book, or any book in English, and then check that ALL of the elements of that construction are in my system picture.....they ALWAYS are, so the student starts looking at the subject in a different way. Very quickly, referring to the diagram, they can tell me for example the construction of the present perfect passive of, say, the verb 'to paint'. I ask them to make a sentence using this tense using the subject "My house":
My house has been painted (have+3 with be+3, an A+B construction).
(This is a good example of how English verb tenses work - "has been painted" is a combination of "has been" and "been painted", using "been" just once)
Then the same thing with the present perfect continuous tense, this time using "I" as the subject and "my house" as object:
I have been painting my house (have+3 with be 1-ing, an A+C construction).
I ask them if they think all this is easy, and all eventually agree that it is. This is a great psychological boost for them, getting them to drop the notion that it's difficult.
Then we have to get down to the task of learning how to use these tenses in everyday speech. With the past simple, we generally say when something happened:
I painted my house last week.
If you're telling someone some news, and the actual time of the event is not so important, we use the present perfect in British English:
My mate Pete has bought a new car.
I have American friends who say:
I didn't do it yet.
I never hear this from fellow Brits, it's always:
I haven't done it yet
Again, many thanks for your feedback on this.
Not around here it isn't ! (unless that was a typo ?)
"One ought to be punctual" - is how I/we would write/say this.
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
Americans would drop the 'has' from the above sentence, and of course, we have 'friends' and not 'mates':
"My friend Pete bought a new car."
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
I stand corrected. My wife and I do not watch television much, but when we do, it's often some sort of British documentary or science program (programme, for you). I have often been struck by the use of certain words that are the same as those we use, but with different sentence structure. I thought that 'ought' was one of them; apparently I am incorrect about that.
steerpike2
Super Member
Both are absolutey correct, no hint of grammar error in either.
But they have subtle and slightly different meanings.
What irritates me unceasingly is the construct "You should of brought paper" and it is so widespread, and dead wrong.
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
Americans write differently than they speak. "Ought to" is probably not as common in spoken English than it is in written form.
The common spoken form is a non-word, "oughta." I'm sure you have heard it said that way:
"You oughta bring me that piece of paper." Very common usage. "Oughta" is simply "ought to" pronounced as a contraction.
As an American, I'm used to hearing 'oughta' and reading 'ought to'.
In any case, I searched in vain for a rule governing 'ought to' the other night, because I am occasionally wrong about English grammar, often to my great surprise, but I could find no such rule. Even 'Grammar Girl', my usual reference, makes use of the phrase quite often. So I believe it is grammatically correct, even if it seems unusual.
Exactly right.
Also when 'Bought' and 'Brought' are interchanged - makes my blood boil. (and 'lend' and 'borrow' - this list goes on...)
"You should of bought paper" Arrgggghhh !
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
Very common, and you are of course correct. The problem is that we Americans use contractions in a slurring fashion and then sound them out when writing, a sort of reverse transcription error.
"Should have" is acceptable, but is often pronounced "Shoulda," which in turn is commonly (and incorrectly) written "Should of," and eventually, people read the latter and start saying "Should of" instead of "Shoulda."
English is fun. Weird, but fun.
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
When I lived in Wisconsin, I was shocked to hear "He borrowed me a piece of paper." From time to time in Michigan, I hear "He lended me a piece of paper."
I always understood "should of" to be an incorrect trasncription of the contraction of "should have", namely, "should've".
Our lazy pronunciation causes much consternation and difficulty with English spelling and grammar, for both native and non-native speakers.
Our lazy pronunciation causes much consternation and difficulty with English spelling and grammar, for both native and non-native speakers.
Mr English
Recycled toy cars
Well, I'm no purist with English. You can here me say "she were" and "we was" and other crimes .
I take the line that language is in the hands of the people who use it. We Brits no longer say things like:
"Thou art truly wonderful, Mary. I beseech thee to consider well my proposal."
Goodbye is a contraction of "God be with you", I believe.
A poor command of grammar can be a career handicap. Many still judge others by their ability to speak and write in a manner which they have decided is "the right way".
In some circles in Britain, saying:
"Sorry I've been late every day this week, boss."
.....will get you nowehere fast. It has to be:
"I apologise for my having been late daily this week, sir."
Snottery and snobbery are hard things to swallow for peasants like what I am.
.I take the line that language is in the hands of the people who use it. We Brits no longer say things like:
"Thou art truly wonderful, Mary. I beseech thee to consider well my proposal."
Goodbye is a contraction of "God be with you", I believe.
A poor command of grammar can be a career handicap. Many still judge others by their ability to speak and write in a manner which they have decided is "the right way".
In some circles in Britain, saying:
"Sorry I've been late every day this week, boss."
.....will get you nowehere fast. It has to be:
"I apologise for my having been late daily this week, sir."
Snottery and snobbery are hard things to swallow for peasants like what I am
.
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Mr English
Recycled toy cars
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Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
Try as do not to let this one bother me.......
....it DOES!!!
I always laugh when I hear a person from England say 'bovver' instead of 'bother'. I don't know why it's funny, but it is.
Mr English
Recycled toy cars
Ah, the simplified version.
There isn't much graphical stuff for the study of English......maybe that's why I've had a go at it.