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For the Believers out there...which cable upgrade makes the most difference?

I started with interconnects and that's probably a good idea, but it can get expensive. Start at source-to-preamp (or whatever) first, but play around.

But please keep the following in mind because I believe, now more than ever, that it's an approach that can really kick one's audio systems performance up to a new level:

Good to know:thmbsp:. So, now answer me this: If I were to buy one nice power cable, where would it best serve...amp, DAC, or TT. I'm guessing the amp would be the most sensitive to the power cable since it's drawing the most current by far.

Entex in my experience upgraded power cables seem to usually benefit those things with heftier power supplies, like amps and preamps, to a greater degree, as you've already guessed. However, I do not believe this is simply a matter of larger-gauge-is-more-better, as one might understandably presume. But keep in mind it's not only amps that have big-arse power supplies. For example, I have a CD player with a toroidal transformer in it that's significantly bigger than the one in my 50 wpc NAD 326BEE integrated amp, and so I always make sure it has one of my better power cables on it (and I have tried the "lesser" ones on that CD player because, well you know what they say about assumption).

Anyway let me sum this up a bit for you, and make the whole thing even simpler: buy a nice entry-level cable - the Shunyata Venom 3 seems to be universally loved at ~$125 per meter and a half, so I'd strongly consider that first - and then experiment. Switch it around, you might be surprised. Expect your amps to benefit the most but don't be surprised if that's not the case.

The important thing, IMO, is that you're taking steps towards re-cabling your hi-fi system, and even without going nuts (I personally don't think buying several $100 power cables for a decent audio system is nuts at all if you can afford it), it will provide your system with a very solid foundation you can build on over time if you choose. And that's why I feel the importance of cables in an audio system is more often than not under-valued.

Next: What are you plugging everything into? Is it a typical Home Depot-type surge protector outlet? Consider replacing it. Power conditioners are controversial (what isn't?), and from all I've tried and read about, it seems the less expensive ones tend to limit dynamics, and so you have a trade-off, but a considerable one.

The best thing I ever did with my current system was to replace my Monster brand power conditioning outlet center (and they aren't really that bad) with a PS Audio Juice Bar II outlet center, which is connected to an Oyaide wall outlet by a Shunyata Diamondback power cable (now discontinued and replaced by the aforementioned Venom 3).

Forget the outlet thing for a minute. The Juice Bar is one of those less-is-more components. No surge protection, no conditioning, just copper buss bars and internal contacts which grip the power cord plugs much more tightly than they normally would be. It's meant to be like an extension of the wall outlet, in the most literal sense, by which I mean, you're supposed to be plugging your components directly into the wall outlet (by this school of thought). For me, going this route was one of those "Holy sh*t!" moments; the music now flows more easily, and thus sounds so much more natural. Unlike most cable upgrades (IME), this was a very, very noticeable change for the better.

So consider perhaps upgrading a power cable now, maybe another down the road, and then keep in mind this: the wall outlet and/or your power "strip" is the point at which your audio system components are connected to the power supply of your house - whatever that is, at that point. This is my response to the inevitable reply I get over and over and over here and elsewhere: "Well then you might as well replace all the wiring in the house and the miles of wire to the power station." I think that's a case of erroneous perspective. Where power cords and power outlet centers are concerned, IMO (based on experience with these things), it's all about that point of connection between the component and the wall. Things that get in the way, well, get in the way.

These things are the very foundation of your audio setup and should not be underestimated just because they seem counter-intuitive, or because no one has yet shown satisfactory measurements confirming the differences many of us hear (they will soon, I believe, because it must be true that everything we hear can be measured, whether or not we know how to do so just yet).

Please let me know if any of this is unclear, or if it raises other questions.
 
Cables/wires can sometimes surprise you. What's good in one system may not be in another, and the effects --or lack of them-- tend to be unpredictable. Perhaps they would be predictable with the right measuring methods and gear, but I find ears work very well in "tuning" what ultimately will be enjoyed (or not) with the same ears.

Thus far, the few things I've found are:

1. For anything handling bass sounds (speaker with large woofer or subwoofer), speaker wires should be at least 12 gauge in total (whether using single-wire or bi-wiring); beyond that doesn't seem to make a difference, even running a 500+ WPC amp with bass-heavy music. Different types of wires can make a difference, too, but I use the 12 gauge as a "safety point" to make sure I'm not losing sound on the bottom end. For mids/tweeters, this doesn't seem to be a requirement, and sometimes even fairly thin wires (especially if silver or silver-plated copper) can be adequate.

2. Shielding helps, as does using balanced XLR connections, but the latter help most if (1) the entire chain is balanced, and (2) you're in a somewhat noisy environment to begin with.

3. Turntable wires are the most critical of all, presumably because they carry the smallest signal, most susceptible to audible degradation. Capacitance is key here; generally speaking, the lower the better.

4. It's worth trying different cables in different locations, and listening to results. If you can enlist someone to help you, it's worth doing this "blind", to minimize (and hopefully eliminate) psycho-acoustic self-delusion.

5. Always keep in mind that you're listening in a complex, multi-part system, where everything interacts. If you have a chance to upgrade any part of the system (like when I found better power strips, discussed below), do so. Unless you are over-paying for stuff, you have nothing to lose and possibly better sound to gain. You never know until you hear it for yourself, what thing might have an audible impact in your system, in your room, to your ears.



Here is a question that has plagued me for a while.

I run a dedicated power line from my circuit box. I use hospital grade or better outlets at the gear end....
But, it's all terminated to a $7.99 chincy little circuit breaker. Why is that not the weakest link? I ... cannot find much by the way of better grade breakers...lots of ridicule and sarcasm to be found though.

By the way, running a dedicated line and getting my gear off of lines with fluorescent lighting was one of the best tweaks ever.

I've seen an entire "audiophile breaker box" at an exhibition here. All of the contacts in it were gold-over-rhodium or silver, etc... and the case and the components in it were damped, etc... Real over-kill and very expensive. Unfortunately, they didn't have any kind of demo set up, to let one hear whether it might make a sonic difference. At least someone out there has thought along these lines and offered such a product, though.

I'd agree that a dedicated line, as well-separated as possible from sources of noise, is a major upgrade to any system that doesn't have that. Sometimes even that isn't enough; in my previous place, I had a heck of a time getting rid of not only noise on the line, but also air-transmitted noise, until I replaced the "newfangled" fan speed controllers for the ceiling fans and similarly-made dimmer switches with old-fashioned variacs. The noise level dropped from annoyingly noticeable to virtually inaudible (after isolation transformers).


Add to the list:

4) Capacitance, lower is always better esp. from a MM cartridge.
5) Inductance

My experience is different to everyone else. To my ears the most notable gains are to be had from speaker cables. Enamelled magnet wire with it's ultra thin dielectric is a revelation, and dirt cheap.

I've never tried enameled magnet wire for speaker cables, but it's sure useful stuff in a variety of other applications. Now you've just given me my next cable experiment... I wonder how many strands of the thin EMW I've got it will take to equal 12 gauge? :D

I started with interconnects and that's probably a good idea, but it can get expensive. Start at source-to-preamp (or whatever) first, but play around.
...
Anyway let me sum this up a bit for you, and make the whole thing even simpler: buy a nice entry-level cable - the Shunyata Venom 3 seems to be universally loved at ~$125 per meter and a half, so I'd strongly consider that first - and then experiment. Switch it around, you might be surprised. Expect your amps to benefit the most but don't be surprised if that's not the case.
... it will provide your system with a very solid foundation you can build on over time if you choose. And that's why I feel the importance of cables in an audio system is more often than not under-valued.

I wholly agree with two key ideas you've expressed: (1) try getting one good power cable and switch it around, to hear where it makes (or doesn't make) what difference. This kind of direct experimentation takes all the theoretical assumptions out of the equation, and lets you hear with your own ears, in your own system and room. Nothing quite replaces that experience, for accuracy in determining where to put (or not put) what.

I also like your approach to providing a system with "a very solid foundation." I think one of the best things I did for my own system was to forget about the approach of multiple small, incremental upgrades. That's a good way to start when you're just learning how audio works, but when you replace, say, a turntable or speakers or preamp with something that is clearly VERY good, something that at least has the potential to be an "end game" unit, you give yourself a sold foundation for that part of the system, against which other gear can be adequately judged. Otherwise, you may have some difficulty in deciding which part of the system is really holding back the system as a whole. This certainly applies to things like cables, as well. If one or more of my cables are choking off the highs or lows, then it won't matter what other substitutions I make in the system; I'll never hear what the cables are preventing me from hearing.


Next: What are you plugging everything into? ...
The best thing I ever did with my current system was to replace my Monster brand power conditioning outlet center ...with a PS Audio Juice Bar II outlet center...

Forget the outlet thing for a minute. The Juice Bar is one of those less-is-more components. No surge protection, no conditioning, just copper buss bars and internal contacts which grip the power cord plugs much more tightly than they normally would be.
...For me, going this route was one of those "Holy sh*t!" moments; the music now flows more easily, and thus sounds so much more natural. Unlike most cable upgrades (IME), this was a very, very noticeable change for the better.
...
These things are the very foundation of your audio setup and should not be underestimated...

Again, I'm inclined to agree based on empirical findings. I regularly pass by a scrap-metal collection place that sooner or later gets nearly everything from ripped-out elevator installations to underground power cabling, along with a fair amount of medical/hospital gear. Over the past few years, I've picked up some very high-grade, heavy-duty power strips made with metal boxes (excellent shielding), high-end sockets that really grip the plugs with thick, flat surfaces, and thicker wire. The most recent pair I got had wire that was 2.5 x 3 mm, and rated at 300-500 volts (house current here is 220V). The wire was well-shielded with a good dielectric, too. What it was used for, I have no idea --possibly some medical lab gear or something, but it's the kind of overkill that I've found works well for audio use.

I've taken power strips and cables that were used in bank mainframe installations, too; they also use heavy, shielded cables, probably to protect important data from corruption, and some of it makes good interconnects or power-supply umbilicals.

In some cases, I've mounted the heavy-metal power-strip boxes on nice stained wooden base strips, even using gaskets and either felt or little gel feet, to reduce mechanical vibration. I always inspect and make sure that the things are really solid inside, and polish/DeOxit all contact surfaces. (The DeOxit treatment is renewed annually.) Overkill? Absolutely, I'm sure it is, but it gives me peace of mind about that solid foundation, a much nicer "audiophile" appearance to the stuff, and buying at pretty much scrap prices, it's a darned sight cheaper than the stuff in the specialty audiophile stores. Besides, it's fun to find and make this stuff!
 
3. Turntable wires are the most critical of all, presumably because they carry the smallest signal, most susceptible to audible degradation. Capacitance is key here; generally speaking, the lower the better.

And, incidentally, I wholly agree with this point of yours (although I think capacitance is much less important when using moving coil cartridges, as I'm sure you know - I only mention that for the OP in case he doesn't) which I should have remembered to mention because it's (proper cables) so important for those of us who use a turntable as a source.

Don't try to get away with using un-shielded interconnects between your turntable and phono preamp. I speak from experience, it's not a good idea. :) Unless you're into hum; it's very possible this could work if the lp being played is some type of medieval chant. :para: In this application, heavy shielding is critical and it should therefore follow (if I assume my opinions about audio cables are true outside my brain) that higher quality cables in all sorts of other ways will be better in this situation.
 
Okay guys, I just hooked up a Shunyata 3 power cable and Analysis Plus Black Oval 12s (10 feet) to my system...I'm just going to copy/paste my description from another thread with some additional questions for you guys:

I just hooked up a Shunyata Venom 3 to my Brio-R as well as Analysis Plus Black Oval 12 ten foot speaker cable. I was replacing the stock power chord and some cheap RCA 16 gauge bare-terminal speaker cable. The sound is COMPLETELY different. Like, if I was doing a blind A/B I would guess new speakers had been hooked up. I wouldn't think even a different amp could alter the sound this much.

The most obvious thing is the low-end just sounds MASSIVE now. It's like I was missing the bottom 30Hz of the signal before or something. The bass sounds incredibly deep and much louder. The overall sound is simply more powerful and aggressive. Every discrete, percussive sound in the music seems to attack faster and harder and also recoil faster. It's seriously ridiculous how much louder the bass is. They seem to have stole some presence from the mids though, because the mids seem to have diminished somewhat. The treble seem to chime more and has more sizzle...basically the higher treble frequencies are more present and detailed. Hmm...so maybe the general change is the highest highs and lowest lows are coming forward much more than before. It's seriously like night and day...it's not even necessarily better because it doesn't even sound the same at all. I'm going to have to listen to it more.I'm wondering if 10 gauge speaker cable would have changed the sound even more?! Also, would getting 6-8 foot 12 gauge be noticeably different than 10 foot 12 gauge? Do you think the speaker cable was the larger influence in this increased bass?

Do you have another speaker cable to try? Listening more will allow you to decide if the change is 'better'. IMHO the Brio should not 'need' 10 ga wire.

Try putting the stock PC back in. Then you will know what each cable is doing.
 
Do you have another speaker cable to try? Listening more will allow you to decide if the change is 'better'. IMHO the Brio should not 'need' 10 ga wire.

Try putting the stock PC back in. Then you will know what each cable is doing.

It's not about needing 10 gauge cable it's about what difference it makes. These are not the same thing.

Changing one thing at a time gives you the best idea of what difference each change makes and then mixing and matching can tell you what works best together.
 
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I would agree once again with the recent comments of Mr. Lin, as I often do. When speaking of the mains, a PS Audio Juice Bar in place of just about any hardware store, cheap, general purpose, power strip will offer instant gains in several areas. Even bettering as he spoke, a Monster (made for AV/audio, I would presume) power distribution block. I know this from experience myself as I have had one in my system since the first version was offered.

Don't be in a hurry, this process takes time. Believe it or not, you will spend more time (and frustration) in being in too great of a hurry to get everything in and be done than pumping the brakes a bit, and easing into this venture little by little.

A good way to evaluate the changes that any piece of gear or cable (also a component) benefits a particular rig is usually more profound by its removal than by its introduction.

I often put a cable in and unless it is unbearable, I leave it in for a time and get accustomed to how it plays with the rest of the kit and after a good lengthy listening session where I have been able to learn and understand its strengths and weaknesses, I then replace it out, for the previous cable that was my reference. By omission, more times than not, I decide definitively whether it is missed for its particular character with the rest of the kit, or whether it falls short in one or more areas. I have found, time and time again, that this is a far clearer and simpler choice than by a components addition. I would highly recommend this method for your evaluation process. Less pain, more gain.

About the order of addition/subtraction of cables in a system synergy, I would first work to support the mains (mains are the other source) to a reasonable level of quality and as Mr. Lin eluded, build a stable foundation for the rest of the kit to work from (this will change, with fine tuning in the end). Then consider after the mains, your music source. IC's from the most critical feeds, TT to phono-stage or DAC to CD transport, than to the preamp, than to the amps, than to the speakers. This order and its presumption acknowledges that if the source is not propagating the next level or in other words, if the source does not lead the hierarchy of a system in its superiority to convey appropriate information, how will you discern if the next level of the chain is more completely resolved... truly better or worse?

It is easy to get caught up in the desire to reach the end. It is equally easy to create an enormous confusion over theoretical concepts of the merit of one piece over another and it really all boils down to the full system synergy.
But how do you get there? I think you need to set priorities. I have found that this methodology seems to ease the work-flow of a project like you are undertaking and offers a manageable way to create steady and satisfying progress. Give it a try, and have fun.

Happy <))))) Listening!
 
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