For the Believers out there...which cable upgrade makes the most difference?
- Thread starter entex
- Start date
robgmn
Super Member
Good point.
IMHO-
Power cable: buy one that can handle more current than the cable in the wall before the outlet (should be under $20). Buy a battery backup with good filtering that can run the system for 15-20 minutes. IMO it would do more for the sound than any passive power cable could.
Signal cables: buy good quality, but check the facts before you spend a LOT of money as there is a law of diminishing returns (does a $1,000 interconnect sound twenty times better to you than a $50 one?).
Speaker cables: see signal cables.
Before you spend a LOT of money on various cables & interconnects, evaluate the ROOM. A mediocre system in a properly set up room is going to sound much better than a hi-dollar system in a room that's an acoustic nightmare.
DaveElton
A Whiter Shade Of Pale
Personaly i have noticed improvements in my two systems, "subtle", but improvements by going to some decent Audioquest interconnects on my CD players. I noticed some further improvements, again subtle, but there in switching out the "plain-jane" patch cords on my Bose 901 V1 EQ with some very decently made Phillips interconnects. The systems , to my ears sounded good "before", however they have been now made even more so by a "notch" or so 
VinylRob
Vinylphile
><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
I understand you have an issue in your way of thinking with cables not being considered as components (in and of themselves) but, that is already excepted by experience of "the believers" exchanging ideas in this thread. Personally my experience is that a $15k pre-amp would show a greater improvement from good IC's or mains cable do to its presumably higher resolution. So it really does make sense. Your Ferrari example would be better placed (but still a nonevent) if you had suggested tires or spark plugs or air cleaner filters but, that is not the line of discussion framed by the OP's question. As well, the majority of this high-end hobby has already experienced, concluded, purchased, and moved on from the question of "if" or "should" or whatever the hell else one can put with faulty logic in the way of the understanding (from experience) that EVERYTHING MATTERS and CABLES ARE A WORTH WHILE SOUND IMPROVEMENT on any kit worth listing to.
Happy (post AK Fest) Listening!
I understand you have an issue in your way of thinking with cables not being considered as components (in and of themselves) but, that is already excepted by experience of "the believers" exchanging ideas in this thread. Personally my experience is that a $15k pre-amp would show a greater improvement from good IC's or mains cable do to its presumably higher resolution. So it really does make sense. Your Ferrari example would be better placed (but still a nonevent) if you had suggested tires or spark plugs or air cleaner filters but, that is not the line of discussion framed by the OP's question. As well, the majority of this high-end hobby has already experienced, concluded, purchased, and moved on from the question of "if" or "should" or whatever the hell else one can put with faulty logic in the way of the understanding (from experience) that EVERYTHING MATTERS and CABLES ARE A WORTH WHILE SOUND IMPROVEMENT on any kit worth listing to.
Happy (post AK Fest) Listening!
Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
robgmn
Super Member
I understand you have an issue in your way of thinking with cables not being considered as components (in and of themselves) but, that is already excepted by experience of "the believers" exchanging ideas in this thread. Personally my experience is that a $15k pre-amp would show a greater improvement from good IC's or mains cable do to its presumably higher resolution. So it really does make sense. Your Ferrari example would be better placed (but still a nonevent) if you had suggested tires or spark plugs or air cleaner filters but, that is not the line of discussion framed by the OP's question. As well, the majority of this high-end hobby has already experienced, concluded, purchased, and moved on from the question of "if" or "should" or whatever the hell else one can put with faulty logic in the way of the understanding (from experience) that EVERYTHING MATTERS and CABLES ARE A WORTH WHILE SOUND IMPROVEMENT on any kit worth listing to.
Happy (post AK Fest) Listening!
Perhaps misunderstood.
I DO believe cables can make a difference in the sound (though I feel they SHOULDN'T as it's not their "job" - different argument), but I feel that if you are buying a high-end component (amp to keep it simple), the proper power cable should be included as part of the design (i.e. a TurnKey solution) or not included at all (which can be the case).
Would it make sense for (name your brand here) to sell a $5K turntable, and include a $19.99 AT cartridge with it?
Why would someone sell an amp with a "not right" power cable that could so easily diminish the sound quality delivered (and please don't say economics)?
Would you buy a speaker and then accept instructions from the mfgr. that you must stuff it with fibrefill just to make it sound right?
My "argument" is more to the fact that if this stuff needs to be done, then someone is not doing their job right.
This HAS become a threadjack, so I'll just leave it at that out of respect for the OP.
VinylRob
Vinylphile
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Again, I think that is because you look at a cable (of any kind) as just a "wire" and not as a component. In my opinion, your example this time with the cartridge and turn table is apropo, I would differ again, this time about the ratio in your example. Linn used to demo the Sondek Lp12 and Ittok LVII arm ($1900 retail) with a $45 cartridge, the K9, against other tables with a more uniform or conventional distribution of funds and value and nine times out of ten, I liked the Linn with the disproportional set-up better, to show once again how our general audiophile logic was incorrect. But once again, this is not the subject of conversation, except to say that the general audiophile logic may once again be all screwed up when speaking about cables in a system synergy. I believe the general logic or non-believers are horribly off track because they let faulty logic decide and not their ears. In this respect we are in context with the discussion somewhat. I still find the OP's question to be spot on and a valuable concern.
I hate the meaning of the word "believe" in this thread in that it leaves the door open for arguments between "logic" and "beliefs". Rather, the word I like and the one more appropriate might be "understanding" or "experience". Because this is NOT about what we "believe" but rather about what we have actually heard in our experience.
Happy <))))) Listening!
Again, I think that is because you look at a cable (of any kind) as just a "wire" and not as a component. In my opinion, your example this time with the cartridge and turn table is apropo, I would differ again, this time about the ratio in your example. Linn used to demo the Sondek Lp12 and Ittok LVII arm ($1900 retail) with a $45 cartridge, the K9, against other tables with a more uniform or conventional distribution of funds and value and nine times out of ten, I liked the Linn with the disproportional set-up better, to show once again how our general audiophile logic was incorrect. But once again, this is not the subject of conversation, except to say that the general audiophile logic may once again be all screwed up when speaking about cables in a system synergy. I believe the general logic or non-believers are horribly off track because they let faulty logic decide and not their ears. In this respect we are in context with the discussion somewhat. I still find the OP's question to be spot on and a valuable concern.
I hate the meaning of the word "believe" in this thread in that it leaves the door open for arguments between "logic" and "beliefs". Rather, the word I like and the one more appropriate might be "understanding" or "experience". Because this is NOT about what we "believe" but rather about what we have actually heard in our experience.
Happy <))))) Listening!
Last edited:
entex
Active Member
One more point about mains cables and then I'll jump off my soap box, I promise.
Good mains cables can make a big difference not just because of their gauge or ability to transfer current, many, like the Shunyata brand are elaborate filtering and shielding devises. Many improve your sound by omission, or in other words, what they shield from the equipment. Many non-believers will shrug this off because it is difficult to use basic measuring tools and practices to recognize their value. Shunyata, Nordost, and several others have a background in military communications and satellite technology applied science that goes well beyond the knowledge or practice of a basic radio and TV repair tech who will tell you that this is all just great advertising mumbo-jumbo. Not true, try the cable and you will see (I mean, hear!)
Happy (post AK Fest) Listening!
Good to know:thmbsp:. So, now answer me this: If I were to buy one nice power cable, where would it best serve...amp, DAC, or TT. I'm guessing the amp would be the most sensitive to the power cable since it's drawing the most current by far.
MWalt
Super Member
Wow, good thread so far. It just so happens that I am in the process of factoring in a major cable upgrade. Keep it going!
I use these and surprisingly enough, they usurped 3 different pairs of boutique cables that I have tried. Not saying that they are the end-all, but they sound really good.
I use these and surprisingly enough, they usurped 3 different pairs of boutique cables that I have tried. Not saying that they are the end-all, but they sound really good.
entex
Active Member
FYI, I went ahead and bought a 10 foot pair of Anlysis One Black Oval 12s. 280 bucks is steep for cable, but I figured I may as well since I'm just trying to put together one, simple, mid-fi modern system right now based on the Rega Brio-R. The sources are a SONOS through a Rega DAC, and a Pro-ject Xpression III TT. Speakers are yet to be found, but I'm currently using recapped Klipsch Fortes. Even if the sound improvement isn't worth 280 bucks vs., say, 100 dollar speaker wire, I'll feel a little more confident in the system knowing every component is professionally assembled and has a name brand on it. I know that's lame, but it's hard to deny the psychological factor. For my vintage system, I'll stick with the 14 gauge RCA cable and radioshack interconnects. Once everything goes through my vintage Marantz receiver, it's a lot harder to hear the difference.
VinylRob
Vinylphile
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My experience would lean toward the DAC with say a JPS Digital cable yielding the largest improvement yet, the better improvement for the system overall though would be the amp. I have heard very minimal changes with a quality cable to a TT power supply. To back up a moment, by using the JPS Digital on the DAC, if you are not on isolated circuits between your analogue and digital and you CD player is left on but (even) not playing while your listen to your TT, you may find that the digital hash feeding back through the mains into the rest of your analogue gear will be reduced and the low level detail and background "blackness" are nicely improved when the hash goes away. I have isolated circuits for each (digital/analogue), so a TT power supply cable or CD/DAC cable wouldn't show quite the benefit as a kit without. I have heard a real benefit to upgrading the power cable on an (even modest) amp. To take this to a ridiculous degree, a friend of mine in the SMAC club lent me a Cary SuperAmp and I ran it on a modest mains cable and it sounded beautiful, then I pulled out an Elrod Signature II cable that retails for more than the amp. I put it on and the bass and lower mid nearly knocked me out of my chair. Not only was there more, lower bass, but it sounded more musically correct in timbre. Does this say that the pairing is reasonable or suggested? or economically makes sense as a bang for your buck? Hell no, but that mains cable (even though it sounds illogical) helped that little amp sound its best!!!
Ok, let the non-experienced (non-believers) start the tar and feathering!!!!
Happy <))))) Listening!
My experience would lean toward the DAC with say a JPS Digital cable yielding the largest improvement yet, the better improvement for the system overall though would be the amp. I have heard very minimal changes with a quality cable to a TT power supply. To back up a moment, by using the JPS Digital on the DAC, if you are not on isolated circuits between your analogue and digital and you CD player is left on but (even) not playing while your listen to your TT, you may find that the digital hash feeding back through the mains into the rest of your analogue gear will be reduced and the low level detail and background "blackness" are nicely improved when the hash goes away. I have isolated circuits for each (digital/analogue), so a TT power supply cable or CD/DAC cable wouldn't show quite the benefit as a kit without. I have heard a real benefit to upgrading the power cable on an (even modest) amp. To take this to a ridiculous degree, a friend of mine in the SMAC club lent me a Cary SuperAmp and I ran it on a modest mains cable and it sounded beautiful, then I pulled out an Elrod Signature II cable that retails for more than the amp. I put it on and the bass and lower mid nearly knocked me out of my chair. Not only was there more, lower bass, but it sounded more musically correct in timbre. Does this say that the pairing is reasonable or suggested? or economically makes sense as a bang for your buck? Hell no, but that mains cable (even though it sounds illogical) helped that little amp sound its best!!!
Ok, let the non-experienced (non-believers) start the tar and feathering!!!!
Happy <))))) Listening!
michaelhigh
mind's eye music
Buying my first instrument wireless (HME) for stage use back in the 70's. I've always had them ever since, I'm using a Samson Concert 4 wireless in my bass rig now. It sounds better than a wire and frees me to roam and rock.
Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
Indeed. I was going to write about that aspect in this thread, but decided it was deserving of it's own:
Why are us "cable belivers" made to defend our position so often?
Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
I wonder if it's run its useful course. Seems we all pretty much agree on cable hierarchy.
One thing I enjoy doing is switching the 3 decent sets of ICs that I own around from source to source and listen for the interactions.
It's interesting to see where the most difference can be heard. (and not)
240sx4u
Lunatic Member
Allow me;
Which cables do you guys find more important? The ones between the tonearm and phono stage or the ones between phono stage and preamp?
My gut days arm to phono stage but I am not sure. I have a costly set of new interconnects coming to fill that role and I am hoping I am placing them in a good part of my system.
entex
Active Member
Okay guys, I just hooked up a Shunyata 3 power cable and Analysis Plus Black Oval 12s (10 feet) to my system...I'm just going to copy/paste my description from another thread with some additional questions for you guys:
I just hooked up a Shunyata Venom 3 to my Brio-R as well as Analysis Plus Black Oval 12 ten foot speaker cable. I was replacing the stock power chord and some cheap RCA 16 gauge bare-terminal speaker cable. The sound is COMPLETELY different. Like, if I was doing a blind A/B I would guess new speakers had been hooked up. I wouldn't think even a different amp could alter the sound this much.
The most obvious thing is the low-end just sounds MASSIVE now. It's like I was missing the bottom 30Hz of the signal before or something. The bass sounds incredibly deep and much louder. The overall sound is simply more powerful and aggressive. Every discrete, percussive sound in the music seems to attack faster and harder and also recoil faster. It's seriously ridiculous how much louder the bass is. They seem to have stole some presence from the mids though, because the mids seem to have diminished somewhat. The treble seem to chime more and has more sizzle...basically the higher treble frequencies are more present and detailed. Hmm...so maybe the general change is the highest highs and lowest lows are coming forward much more than before. It's seriously like night and day...it's not even necessarily better because it doesn't even sound the same at all. I'm going to have to listen to it more.
I'm wondering if 10 gauge speaker cable would have changed the sound even more?! Also, would getting 6-8 foot 12 gauge be noticeably different than 10 foot 12 gauge? Do you think the speaker cable was the larger influence in this increased bass?
I just hooked up a Shunyata Venom 3 to my Brio-R as well as Analysis Plus Black Oval 12 ten foot speaker cable. I was replacing the stock power chord and some cheap RCA 16 gauge bare-terminal speaker cable. The sound is COMPLETELY different. Like, if I was doing a blind A/B I would guess new speakers had been hooked up. I wouldn't think even a different amp could alter the sound this much.
The most obvious thing is the low-end just sounds MASSIVE now. It's like I was missing the bottom 30Hz of the signal before or something. The bass sounds incredibly deep and much louder. The overall sound is simply more powerful and aggressive. Every discrete, percussive sound in the music seems to attack faster and harder and also recoil faster. It's seriously ridiculous how much louder the bass is. They seem to have stole some presence from the mids though, because the mids seem to have diminished somewhat. The treble seem to chime more and has more sizzle...basically the higher treble frequencies are more present and detailed. Hmm...so maybe the general change is the highest highs and lowest lows are coming forward much more than before. It's seriously like night and day...it's not even necessarily better because it doesn't even sound the same at all. I'm going to have to listen to it more.
I'm wondering if 10 gauge speaker cable would have changed the sound even more?! Also, would getting 6-8 foot 12 gauge be noticeably different than 10 foot 12 gauge? Do you think the speaker cable was the larger influence in this increased bass?