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Forte I owner looking for advice

taylor low

taylor low

New Member
Hi All,

Been a lurker on this forum for a while and decided i might need a little help. I have a set of forte's that i acquired from my father about 5 yrs ago. He bought them brand new and at some point just sat in the garage until i finally decided to try them out and just fell instantly in love with them. one had a blown tweeter and woofer and i decided to rebuild it with Bob Crites titanium tweeter and his woofer for the fortes. I also upgraded the tweeter in the other speaker but left the original woofer. Anyways, i love the bass it produces but im looking for a more realistic sound, like at a concert. Last year during black friday i decided to shell out some money for an Onkyo TX-NR747 and i ended up returning it because i was disappointed with it. It sounded nice and loud, but it just didnt provide the thump like my Sony STR-DE425 did. Im more than happy with the bass that i have but like i said, i want a more lifelike sound without comprising bass. What would you all suggest for a set up? Right now im still using my sony with the fortes. its a fairly simple set up. My dad also gave me a Carver MXR-130 but it needs repair. Not sure if i should get it fixed or not. Im fairly new to the "hi-fi" hobby but i have seen mcintosh is really good. I have also heard good things about Cambridge audio. my budget is $1000.
 
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I used to own some heavily modified Klipsch Tangent 200's. They sang beautifully with my Fisher KX200. I know a lot of people like to run Klipsch horns with Fisher tube amps as there is a real synergy in this combo. In general tube amps and horns work really well together as you get the projection and focus from the horns and the tubes warm them up. Also because Klipsch are quite efficient, tubes are a perfect application because the 40 watts give or take that most tube amps have load the speakers very well (some people go as low as 5 watts depending on the speaker!).

Everything from this point is a little off topic, but assuming you haven't done it already I think it could be of great benefit to you.

If you still have the original caps in the speakers thats another area I would address, replacing vintage caps can have a huge impact on the sound of a speaker. When I changed mine out it was one of the biggest upgrades I did and relatively cheap too. Look for film foil caps, there's a lot of info in these forums on the best ones to use but I went with Daytons and was very happy.

The third thing I would mention that makes a massive difference with horns is room treatment. I found that horns tend to really "throw" the sound which I really like about them. I found without treatment it was really easy to hear wall reflections smearing the sound. It was distracting and made some rooms really harsh. Room treatment goes a long way for all systems, its like turning on the lights. Understandably, not everybody can afford the WAF or footprint in their listening space. It is a luxury, but a highly worthwhile luxury.

Both the caps and room treatment will have a significant impact on realism and natural sound. The proper caps will fix any frequencies that are being filtered out (usually in the highs) which will allow the speakers to sound more authentic. The room treatment will isolate the sound of your system from the resonance of the room. You can have the best system bouncing off the walls and it may sound amazing, but it won't sound natural. High FQ's travel faster so they get hyped in the room, and low FQ's get trapped and build up unnaturally.

The final thing I'll mention is in direct reference to searching for that "concert" sound. These are things that I discovered with my Klipsch Tangents, and were a little outside of the box so for you it would be a total experimentation with the Fortes. Firstly, I found angling them up, and putting my listening position 2 1/2 - 3 feet up so that the speakers were angled up at me made a huge difference. The other thing was that the Fisher KX200 has a center channel. Keeping the horns about 14ft wide and putting a subtle speaker in the middle had a huge impact. Between these two setup choices my listening experience was like being in the front row of a concert.

Sorry for getting off topic, if you want any pictures to visualize what I'm talking about with the setup I should have some kicking around.
If your handy with a soldering iron the recap should be around $50, I build my own acoustic panels for under $300. If you go with a Fisher they are getting pricey, but going up in value from what I've seen. You'd have to keep a sharp eye out, but you could find one with your remaining budget. Dyna ST70 is another that a lot of people seem to like, so they could be worth looking into as well.

Matt
 
i would definitely like to see any pictures you can provide of your set up. I was considering upgrading the crossovers in my forte's as they are original, but i wasnt sure if it was worth it or not. I was looking at the kits that Crites sells. You will have to bare with me on the terminology as im still new to this. Im not sure what WAF is or what you mean by footprint? I have my fortes set up in my living room as my primary audio source for both tv/movies and music. the bass fills the room nicely, especially in the back of the room. Just trying to have a more lifelike sound without it loosing life or sounding "tinny". im afraid that by replacing the caps and still using my sony receiver that would just be defeating the purpose and that my problem lies with the source (receiver). But thats why im here asking, to get advice from more experienced people than i
 
No problem, we all started there and were all here learning all the time :)

I seem to be missing a bunch of pictures from when I had that setup... between these two you should be able to see what I'm talking about. They're just from two different rooms. The first shows the 3 channel configuration, which takes up a lot of space in the room. You will often hear people refer to the amount of physical space occupied by the system as the "footprint".

The second picture shows the system when I had to move into a smaller room, but is taken showing the perspective of the chair which is a few feet off the ground. Remember these are not necessities but I found them very impactful for my system, many people don't bother with a center channel or raised chair. Also, to really make use of the center channel, the L/R speakers should be at least 14ft apart.

I would say the crossover upgrade is still worth it. As caps get old they start to bleed and have lower voltages than were intended by the manufacturer. Regardless of they quality of amp you are using, this difference can be massive on vintage speakers. If certain frequencies aren't being produced by the speaker than no matter what amp your using they wont get out into the room.

All that being said, I do think you're on the right path in wanting to improve your amp as well. I'm a big believer in building evenly though. You won't get your money's worth with $1000 amp on it's own, and it won't sound as good as $600 amp and $50-$100 recapped speakers in my humble opinion. On top of that, if you can afford the physical space (footprint) of some acoustic panels you will be blown away at how good those speakers can sound. I used to have to scoop my jaw off the floor with my Klipsch and they were way lower down the line than Forte's (I run Wharfedale W70's now).

Another thing to consider if you haven't already is speaker placement. This can also have a dramatic effect on how the system sounds. Where in the room have you situated the speakers? Are you running them the length or width of the room? How close to side walls and back wall are they? How far apart are they from each other? How far is your head from the wall behind you?

Oh, and WAF mean wife acceptance factor :P

Matt
 

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Get / stay away from early digital amps, receivers unless they were the few good ones. Within the past year, I bought a new one and still wasn't satisfied.

Get a 70s or 80s solid state amp or receiver. Marantz, Sansui, Pioneer, Yamaha, Harman Kardon, etc.
Next, they are placement sensitive. Last night I moved a pair of Forte up, down, left, right, in, and out. It was like a dog having to go, or a WalMart shopper looking for a parking space close to the door. Until I found where they wanted to be, they sounded like shiit. After dialing them in, OMG. Such a balanced sound.
 
Oh, Well i dont have to worry about the WAF because im only 22 and not married haha. I used to have both the speakers positioned in the corner of the room due to an entertainment center being too big to allow a speaker to be positioned on the other side. And i must say, it sounded amazing in that corner. With both passive rad's aimed in the corner it created amazing bass. But now my roomate moved out and took the entertainment center and i now have the speakers placed in the center of the room, one toed in so i can hear it better. The bass definitely is not what it used to be. It is the back of the room but no so much where the sofa is. What are the recommended specs for speaker placement from the wall and toeing in toeing out?
 
weber1 said:
Get / stay away from early digital amps, receivers unless they were the few good ones. Within the past year, I bought a new one and still wasn't satisfied.

Get a 70s or 80s solid state amp or receiver. Marantz, Sansui, Pioneer, Yamaha, Harman Kardon, etc.
Next, they are placement sensitive. Last night I moved a pair of Forte up, down, left, right, in, and out. It was like a dog having to go, or a WalMart shopper looking for a parking space close to the door. Until I found where they wanted to be, they sounded like shiit. After dialing them in, OMG. Such a balanced sound.
Click to expand...

Problem with 70s or 80s receivers/amps is their market price is driven up considerably by nostalgia. Another problem is the maintenance work. Such units are quite nice when they are maintained and have in-spec caps, but a unit that hasn't been opened up its entire life from that era is not going to be optimal. You can easily spend a small fortune on that kind of unit. And it's debatable as to whether you'll even hear a difference anyways. It's quite subjective and is a prime candidate for expectation bias of the highest order.

I'd just go with a no-nonsense modern AVR or amp and call it a day. You get the warranty, you'll spend less money in the first place, and you'll have all the technological advances of the last 30 years. First and foremost, spend your money on fresh capacitors for your Fortes, followed by new Titantium tweeter diaphragms, Next spend your money on room treatments (acoustic panels). Spend your money on the physical appearance of your vintage Fortes. Spend your money on a subwoofer. Don't spend your money on audiophile amplifiers or vintage high-end amplifiers. Not going to make a real-world difference in sound quality.
 
toe both speakers in a bit (towards each other rather than away) and those passives should be 6-12" or so off the back wall (in order to use the back wall to enhance their bass)...then enjoy...you may have to move them around a bit and you may be surprised what moving a few inches either way may yield in terms of sound quality...once you find it they should be excellent sounding...

Bill
 
silversport said:
toe both speakers in a bit (towards each other rather than away) and those passives should be 6-12" or so off the back wall (in order to use the back wall to enhance their bass)...then enjoy...you may have to move them around a bit and you may be surprised what moving a few inches either way may yield in terms of sound quality...once you find it they should be excellent sounding...

Bill
Click to expand...

+1. Sometimes a little move makes a large difference.
 
ucforange said:
Problem with 70s or 80s receivers/amps is their market price is driven up considerably by nostalgia. Another problem is the maintenance work. Such units are quite nice when they are maintained and have in-spec caps, but a unit that hasn't been opened up its entire life from that era is not going to be optimal. You can easily spend a small fortune on that kind of unit. And it's debatable as to whether you'll even hear a difference anyways. It's quite subjective and is a prime candidate for expectation bias of the highest order.

I'd just go with a no-nonsense modern AVR or amp and call it a day. You get the warranty, you'll spend less money in the first place, and you'll have all the technological advances of the last 30 years. First and foremost, spend your money on fresh capacitors for your Fortes, followed by new Titantium tweeter diaphragms, Next spend your money on room treatments (acoustic panels). Spend your money on the physical appearance of your vintage Fortes. Spend your money on a subwoofer. Don't spend your money on audiophile amplifiers or vintage high-end amplifiers. Not going to make a real-world difference in sound quality.
Click to expand...

Can't argue with some of the problems with the older stuff. Nostalgia isn't driving the price up, sound is. For HT, there isn't a nickle's different. For 2 channel there is a large quality difference. I've A/B a lot of equipment and have had a lot of ears to listen with me. < That shows the biggest difference: A/B with the same source, speakers and at the same time. It's all in what the OP is striving for. He's asking what will make it sound better. You're spot on with the recapping and Ti tweeters.
 
Ive already changed out the tweeters to Ti. That made a big difference in clarity. Havent touched the caps yet though. I was under the impression that the older vintage equipment is where its at. Pre-amp and amp would provide the best sound?
 
My goal is to go for a more natural sound rather than like a produced sound...if that makes sense. I notice that when i turn up the bass knob on the receiver it adds an unnecessary noise in the background. It just doesnt sound clean, almost like its exaggerating bass in a sense. I want to be able to have deep bass with clear, lifelike vocals and no background noise.
 
The time it stands out the most is when A/B ing. I have let several people hear the difference. i didn't really notice a difference until I got back into audio after many years of being too busy to listen to music.

The journey is half t he fun. If you don't pay too much, then you can recover all your money in this hobby. I have had several amps and receivers. Buy, sell, trade and have fun. If you start with a TOTL then you really won't know the difference.
 
Until you recap, you haven't heard your speakers. Period. The difference is not at all subtle; your caps are thirty years old and they have drifted off their original values. Do yourself a favor and recap before buying anything else. That has been my experience every time with speakers of this age, and, yes, it affects bass, too. The cap's job is to pass high frequencies, while attenuating bass. Once they quit working to spec, all frequencies can be off.
 
wow so many suggestions for upgrading the crossovers. I didnt know it would make that much of a difference considering my speakers already sound pretty good! I will have to do the upgrade and i will report back on my impressions. Definitely seems like the smartest move going forward rather than going all out for the sources since it will be a bit cheaper and will give me a good baseline of my set up
 
Yep, rebuild your crossovers first. Like you said it will give you a good baseline on what you have. I used Bob Crites crossover kits for my Heresy's. It was a just 6 caps and the schematic. For me it was worth paying for Bob's expertise to choose the proper caps.

BillWojo
 
So right now im watching a carver m-400t, otherwise known as "the cube",on fleabay and was wondering what would be a good preamp to pair up with it? I have read mixed reviews on a lot of various carver preamps. I heard NAD is hit or miss with klipsch speakers as well? some ppl say its a good match, others say the music sounds lifeless. Any input is greatly appreciated. Im watching the 400t instead of the m-400a or m-400 because ive read somewhere that tubes sound amazing with klipsch and apparently the 400t closely mimics tube characteristics. I would love to go with real tubes such as a mcintosh amp, but i just cant afford that atm with my other expensive hobbies...
 
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