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Fortura 8 Heil AMT speakers?

I had been told...years ago...that since the air motion of the AMT was created by the accordian-type movement of the pleats, and the rear of the pleats were moving in the same direction as the front since it is a lateral motion instead of a piston-motion like a conventional speaker, that the emissions from the rear of the Heil are in-phase with the front. Seemed to make sense to me.
 
But then you wouldn't get the classic ribbon-mic-type figure-8 characteristic. It would be more or less omnidirectional. The controlled directivity of dipole tweeters is a significant contributor to their clarity-- less floor and wall and ceiling bounce.

Think of it this way: If the pleats are blowing in the front, they must be sucking in the back.

Those pleats may make the Heil look like an accordion or a bellows, but that mental model will lead you astray. The action is far more complex, involving pairs of pleats moving in opposite directions. A couple of correct but frustratingly crude animations can be found on the Precide site at the bottom of this page. You'll find there are several much better Heil animations on the 'net. Bigger, better colors, much clearer. Unfortunately, they're completely wrong, because they show the Heil operating as a bellows. This was an easy mistake to make, because each individual pleat does operate as a bellows, that's true, but the diaphragm as a whole does not.

I just found out that Madisound and Meniscus import the Eton ER4, which is an updated (but VERY expensive) mini-Heil. Probably has NdFeB magnets and higher efficiency and who knows, maybe a non-rattly diaphragm.
 
Regarding the diaphagms - the new ones supposedly had a smoother response due to improved manufacturing methods. I think an AK thread mentioned the olds ones were made of airline peanut bag wrappers but I may just be imagining things.

So is the backwave in or out of phase with the forward wave? Does air actually pass through the diaphragm or am I missing something?
 
Hey folks, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I thought these *might* be worth looking at; at least they might add to the current conversation.

Not sure if they are Fortura's, or ESS AMT's, or what; I haven't seen Heil's used in an array before. Has anyone seen a similar arrangement?

I spotted them while checking out this AK thread:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44742

The original Craigslist ad is here (image #23 and 24)
http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/ele/89252581.html
 
vertex said:
Not sure if they are Fortura's, or ESS AMT's, or what; I haven't seen Heil's used in an array before. Has anyone seen a similar arrangement?
I have indeed. Good eye, vertex! That is the tweeter array to an ancient pair of ESS "professional" monitors called the AMT-6. Huge, with a pair of vertically stacked 12" woofers (look just like the ones on the Fortura 12) in what I believe was a sealed cabinet, capable of handling about a kilowatt of power. The tweeters you see in the picture are the big brothers of the one used in the Forturas. ESS called it a "dual-plate" tweeter, and it was intermediate in size between the teensy Fortura mini-Heil and the big "quad-plate" or "Great" Heil in the AMT-1 series. It was used in the Concept series of speakers and in a JBL L-100 killer ESS made in the '70s called the Evaluator. Note that they're turned sideways and arrayed in a semicircle to give uniform hemispherical coverage-- no "controlled dispersion" baloney for this speaker! I have the feeling they designed it for disco duty, since it's styled a bit like E-V's Sentry III.
AMT-6-a.jpg
The photo is from an old eBay auction.

Too bad the guy won't part the lot out and sell these separately. They'd be endless fun to fool with. Which brings up a point I should underline: the Heil is one of the very few high-performance tweeters that's actually tinkerable.
 
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gonzothegreat said:
Regarding the diaphagms - the new ones supposedly had a smoother response due to improved manufacturing methods.
ESS did change from low-density polyethylene (Tupperware) to polyester (Mylar) around 1975 due to a slight melting problem they were having. I don't think they counted on a habit of the Young People of the Era [YPEs or Yippies] to always crank their speakers up to and past the GDP-- Gross Distortion Point. When those primitive YPEs heard Sound As Clear As Light, they took it as a sort of tribal challenge. They turned their 25 w/ch amps up to 11 and even 12 and the result was fried tweeters, even with a design as inherently self-cooling as the Heil. Even Heils stop flapping themselves cool around 30 kHz.

Another improvement that came with the advent of the Mylar diaphragm was the restraining/damping net, visible in this flat-plate medium Heil:
FlatPlateHeil.jpg
You could try damping the Fortura Heil by slipping some nice wide rubber bands around the diaphragm frame and locating them so they'd be behind the polepiece crossbars.

So is the backwave in or out of phase with the forward wave? Does air actually pass through the diaphragm or am I missing something?
The Heil is inherently a dipole, with the front and back 180 degrees out of phase with one another, like the element in an old RCA 44BX ribbon mic. Don't take my word for it, go ahead and look it up. Air does not pass through the diaphragm, although sealing it into the magnet structure and maybe adding a circular baffle wouldn't be a bad idea. It would help eliminate the sharp edges on the mini-Heil.

The only monopole Heils either had a magnet structure that blocked the backwave (the little socalled "power ring" style Heil used in the Tempest line and others) or else a flat-plate Heil was glued to the front of a box stuffed with fiberfill, as was the case with the Heil pictured above.
 
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Ess???

I think ESS is alive and well in Sacramento. See:
http://www.essspeakers.com/

The website says the diaphragms are made of mylar, but I read something somewhere about newer diaphragms made of kapton or kevlar or something.

Either way, the website indicates that they will repair or replace any old AMT unit, or just the diaphragm.

I have two pairs of AMT-3 Rock Monitors, which were (are?) the best sounding ESS speakers I've heard. I think that's because the Heil unit isn't required to go so low due to the separate midrange driver.

In fact, I've been trying to get Gordon W to build a completely new speaker using the Heil unit and state-of-the-art midrange and bass drivers. Gordon is very heavily scheduled, so the project really hasn't started yet, but if it winds up happening, I'll post updates.
 
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Yes, ESS is alive, barely. [UPDATE: It went out of business entirely but just recently (Aug '07) is coming back to life in the Los Angeles area.] I don't know their history from the time they dropped off the radar in the mid-'80s til now, but they've managed to hold onto their exclusive license to manufacture the Heil in the US by sending out a trickle of speakers and drivers. They have no dealer network anymore; everything is factory-direct and the factory is turning out speakers that haven't changed since about 1985. The separate Great Heils they sell on eBay are the same as the ones on the 1975 AMT-1A, a real disappointment. [EDIT: Those black Heils ESS was selling factory-direct toward the end may have had the old laminated pole-piece structure, but they did have the wider throat of the last-generation sculpted-pole-piece Heils, and they did have Kapton diaphragms. Not such a disappointment after all.]

I think only the European manufacturers like Eton and Elac and Precide are likely to give you Heil diaphragms made of Kapton. But it may not be necessary with modern magnets, which should make efficiency go through the roof. It might even be possible to return to polyethylene or go to something like polypropylene.

It would be interesting to see if the mini-Heil replacement diaphragms ESS supplies nowadays show the 1975 improvements. When we had to replace some Fortura diaphragms around 1977, ESS sent us diaphragms in cardboard (!) frames that were no different from the originals.

Two pairs of AMT-3s? Good on you, mate! And yes, granted, having the crossover point smack in the midrange (800 Hz) isn't the best idea, but it would be a shame to lose the dipole effect in that range by handing off to a true midrange driver at say 3kHz. With careful alignment and a nice 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley crossover, you could hand off to a 6" mid-woofer at maybe 500 and then off to a nice juicy 12" around 100. ESS tried to do something like this with the AMT-3. Bi-amping would be ideal. If you get that project rolling, be sure to give us the play by play.

The Fortura Heils will never be really happy below 1500 Hz, but with damping and a steep crossover they can be forced to go down to maybe 750 or 1000. Can't say I recommend it, though.

Any Fortura tweeter that seems to lack the top octaves is most likely not receiving the top octaves (bad breaker? fried crossover?). Either that or its overall level is too low due to a bad L-pad and its output is being swamped by the woofer's falsetto yodeling.

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License? What license?

The patents on the AMT should have expired at least 10 years ago. I would assume it's public property now, and can be manufactured and sold by anyone. If someone was paying attention, they may have "renewed" the patent by filing a new patent on some other aspect of the design, but that sounds unlikely.

Someone on this thread mentioned using a stack of AMTs. It would be very interesting to see what a 6' Great Heil line source sounded like. If they can be bought from ESS, a few $ would fund the experiment, but the impedence problem is beyond me. A line of 12 in parallel would come in at 0.5 ohm and I don't know how line sources are usually wired to prevent this. Once you get that solved, you then have to figure out how to physically mount them in a column. Still, I'd love to hear the results!
 
Negotiableterms said:
The patents on the AMT should have expired at least 10 years ago. I would assume it's public property now, and can be manufactured and sold by anyone.

Which brings up the question why nobody else in North America is doing so. You'd think someone would be giving it a go..




Someone on this thread mentioned using a stack of AMTs. It would be very interesting to see what a 6' Great Heil line source sounded like.

Probably pretty good. ESS charges $300 a pair for the newly-manufactured Great Heils (hey, there's no competition). Buy about 20 of 'em and let us know how they sound.

UPDATE: Ol' Negotiableterms won't have to spend $300 apiece (the current price) to get an idea of how well a Great Heil array works-- he can read this thread at diyaudio.com.
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Dam here I am over here http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46001&highlight=amt

With my new speaks (amt-6) that I'm trying to find info on or at least others to chat
about them and you guy's seem to be over here with all the info.

Anyways these beasts are huge but they do sound sweet. I have 2 bad tweets though
out of the 8 (need new diaphragm's (they measure 4.75" x 1.75")) But just don't have
the cash right now to try and get any. I thought I had them all working but one reads
32 ohms while the others read about 6 and 1 has a loose wire where when you move it
then it will read correctly.

Contrary to what you would think they don't need gobs of power to drive them. In my
testing I've been using a sansui au-217 that drives them without any problem while
barely even turning up the volume plus the outputs never even get warm.

I'm toying with the idea of using 3 tweets a side with the center being wired in paralell
with the other 2 wired in series. Or trying all 3 wired in series. originally they are a pair
of them wired in series then paralelled to each other.

I'm thinking if I can keep them and get them to work right I may biamp them with tubes
uptop with a golden tube audio se-40 and then a kenwood m2 or m2a on the bottom.

Well I've had them for about a weak now and that's about all the info I got.

Glad to see at least a little following for ess/heil/amt around here! Cheers guys!
 
Well I went with the 2 wired in series and 1 in paralell but didn't go in the middle
with the louder one, instead went to the side where the one is not in use.

Made them mirror image so I can try them on either side to see if one way works better.
(just in case anyone was interested in how it came out)


They sound really really good, love those tweeters and the bass is excelent to.
Could be my new favorite speaker!

YEEEEEHHHAAAWWWWW!!
 
Kegger said:
I have 2 bad tweets though out of the 8 (need new diaphragm's (they measure 4.75" x 1.75")) But one reads
32 ohms while the others read about 6 and 1 has a loose wire where when you move it then it will read correctly.
I could be wrong, but this sounds like a classic case of loose/arcing lead-ins. Don't buy new diaphragms until you try the Quick-Grid (conductive paint used to repair rear-window defrosters) fix.

Contrary to what you would think they don't need gobs of power to drive them.
You're right. They're quite efficient. Rule of thumb: the bigger the box, the more efficient it's going to be, all other things being equal.

I'm toying with the idea of using 3 tweets a side with the center being wired in paralell with the other 2 wired in series.
I'd be tempted to leave this part alone, but let us know what happens.

I'm thinking if I can keep them and get them to work right I may biamp them with tubes...
This is an excellent idea. You might need to EQ the upper mids coming out of the woofers, though.
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What an amazing thread of stuff here! Years before I worked for the BSR "trio" (BSR, ADC and dbx) I worked for ESS (1979-1981). Though the Heil had the potential to be the very best tweeter/midrange in existence, the head honchos at ESS somehow managed to destroy its potential by following ridiculous marketing concepts.

The "private label" business for ESS was huge, but as ESS continually made their product cheaper and cheaper, with speakers arriving at dealers with woofers and passive radiators falling down inside the enclosures and nonsense like that, many retailers basically told ESS to just take a hike. Dealer relations were at an all time low when I joined the company, and despite my efforts and those of others in the sales department, problems persisted.

ESS had a propensity to contstantly raise speaker prices, while cheapening the product. The best-selling "Performance" line went up in price one year, and yet all the cast basket woofers in that lineup were replaced with much cheaper stamped versions. As the new Performance models didn't sound any better than their predecessors (in most cases they actually sounded worse) sales fell off precipitously.

The AMT lineup actually did improve significantly with the "C" model lineup, as the crossover point of the Heil was finally lowered (to eliminate the ridiculously high frequencies the woofer previously had to reproduce) and the Heil was angled upward since, though its horizontal dispersion was outstanding, its vertical dispersion was terrible.

ESS engineers had actually developed a 360 degree Heil that sounded amazing, but again, poor business decisions kept it from ever becoming a reality. Perhaps ESS's biggest blunder was the horrible "Transar" speaker which was claimed to be a "full-frequency" Heil.

In order to sell Transars, dealers had to attend a school to learn how to assemble the speaker (at their own expense, too). Transars were made to order, and had to be paid for in full before assembly. Though it sounded good to actually "custom-build" a speaker for a customer, and place his name on it too, when the parts arrived at the dealer, who then had to assemble the speaker in the customer's home, most of them didn't fit! The required amp for the Transar also emitted a loud hum, and most of these speakers either didn't work, fell apart and/or sounded horrible.

A "new" Transar was built in or around 1981, that had a standard cone-type subwoofer, but when compared to other comparably priced speakers of the day, it suffered badly. Once again, the top management refused to accept that they had a lousy product, and tried to sell it anyway, with very, very poor results.

Mismanagement. bad business decisions, sloppy construction, and ever worsening dealer relations eventually put the company out of business. Certainly no surprise there...

Though I always felt the Heil was the greatest sales story in the business, I never much cared for how it sounded. The considerably less expensive array of drivers in the Dahlquist DQ-10, for example, blew away anything ESS ever made, so the horribly high cost of that "great" Heil, to me at least, was simply not worth it.'' Just as a form of comparison: the parts and cost of manufacturing the "great" Heil in the AMT series was considerably higher than the TOTAL cost of manufacturing a Bose 901!

Business 101 would have told even the worst student, that an overall, well designed speaker with a good Heil simply would have cost too much money. As far as I'm concerned, ESS never made a single speaker that ever sounded any good.
 
emaidel said:
I worked for ESS (1979-1981).
Amazing! There are about a gazillion questions I've been wanting to ask ESS for so long that I've forgotten at least another zillion.

emaidel said:
the parts and cost of manufacturing the "great" Heil in the AMT series was considerably higher than the TOTAL cost of manufacturing a Bose 901!
That is amazing, because it would appear that there's no precision machining and aligning involved in making a Heil (as there is in the manufacture of moving-coil drivers). Amateurs have built working models from glue, stamped steel, bar magnets, kitchen foil and plastic dropcloth-- find, if you can, the Feb. '77 issue of The Audio Amateur, which contains instructions by Neil Davis for building your own Heil. Mr Davis is still with us and can be found, along with links to the aforementioned article, over on diyaudio.com.
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