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Four devices, 4 places to adjust volume - which to prioritise?

H

Hifibythekg

Super Member
My set up has four locations at which volume can be adjusted.

In theory, which devices should have their outputs used to maximum, and which to the minimum? Not seeking a loud level of sound, there are neighbours, just the best possible sound quality.

1- Sony Bravia television.

Tidal ‘Masters’ streaming via a USB SD cable connected to a Chord DAC. The TV’s output is controllable on a scale of O-100 displayed on the screen.
Optical output also available but not volume controllable.
(Also use a CD player, turntable etc as sources but maybe ignore these for now as their outputs are ‘pre-set.’)

2 -DAC, a Chord Hugo (headphone DAC) has adjustable output (probably wouldn’t want to go above the 2V level as it may be too much for the next component, the vintage preamp..)

-Preamp, a Yamaha C4, has adjustable output.

-Power amplifier, Yamaha P2200, has adjustable volume outputs for each channel.


So, four devices. Where should each device’s volume knob be pointing?
Naturally, will see how it sounds in practice but would be good to hear what should in theory produce the optimum sound quality.

Maybe list in percentage terms for each device in order to standardise opinions.
 
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As a general rule for gain staging and best signal to noise ratio, the signals at each step of the way should be hot as possible without clipping and without overloading the next stage downstream.

I disagree with the amp being set to max levels. That should be set only as high as necessary to achieve the desired output level, with as much signal coming in from upstream as possible. If the best practice was to always have the amp "wide open" pro amps would not have gain/level controls.
 
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Cheers Ivan. Instinctively, that sounds like a good starting point. Especially as the P2200 is fully recapped and serviced.
Maybe I should narrow the question down to the earlier parts of the chain.
Can't imagine there's much investment in gain in the Sony tv's circuitry..
The Chord DAC and recapped Yamaha preamp should be much nicer... hmmm.. but amplifying a very small signal from the first source..
Whoaru99 thanks also, at the risk of appearing comically contradictory, I can see the logic in your thinking. I also would like to exploit the gain in the much praised Yamaha C4 preamp which would necessitate reductions elsewhere in the chain...
O boy.
 
Hifibythekg said:
Cheers Ivan. Instinctively, that sounds like a good starting point. Especially as the P2200 is fully recapped and serviced.
Maybe I should narrow the question down to the earlier parts of the chain.
Can't imagine there's much investment in gain in the Sony tv's circuitry..
The Chord DAC and recapped Yamaha preamp should be much nicer... hmmm.. but amplifying a very small signal from the first source..
Whoaru99 thanks also, at the risk of appearing comically contradictory, I can see the logic in your thinking. I also would like to exploit the gain in the much praised Yamaha C4 preamp which would necessitate reductions elsewhere in the chain...
O boy.
Click to expand...

That the TV's circuitry maybe isn't as good as the Chord or Yamaha, is exactly the reason why it should be set higher, not lower. The noise of the circuit is relatively inherent to any given device and tends to remain a fairly fixed level. But, the signal you can increase, thus, running hotter signal gives better signal to noise ratio.

The gain of the Yamaha preamp is best used by keeping the downstream gain lower (meaning lower setting of the power amp), not by lowering the upstream and increasing downstream. That's exactly opposite of what maximizes signal to noise ratio. The amp amplifies everything equally, signal and noise. That it's recapped is immaterial in this regard. Sure, the amp works great, thus is great at amplifying both signal and noise. Proper upstream gain staging is what gives the amp a higher percentage of signal to noise to amplify.
 
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Which of your non-adjustable sources is the weakest? I'd probably actually use that as the baseline.

Put that on and set the preamp's volume control to about half travel
adjust the amp levels to get to where you want your typical listening level
turn on the TV, adjust it's volume so its equal to whatever your non-adjustable source
do the same with the DAC

At that point at least 3 of your sources should be running at a comfortable level at approx half travel on the volume control. the others will just end up where it ends up.
 
Some good advice here. My rule of thumb is to avoid, or at least minimize, digital-domain volume control whenever possible. I don't know if that's how volume is controlled by the Chord. If not, then just follow the other advice you've got here and be open to experimenting.
 
Here's my take, much of which echos good advice given above...


1) Use the fixed optical output on the Sony Bravia TV to input to the DAC. Eliminating any digital volume control is a good thing if possible, and it can be done here.

2) Set the Chord DAC adjustable output, by listening, so that it approximately matches the fixed output of your CD player, both of which are line level inputs into your C4. Your downstream gain structure (C4 and P2200, both adjustable) should be set to accommodate your fixed output signal source, the CD player. By matching the DAC output to the CDP output, volume control settings on the C4 during listening sessions will be similar for both of those sources. Ignore the turntable as it is operating on a different signal level that runs through a separate amp section in the C4.

3) On your C4/P2200 you want to have the final gain structure set so that you use a wide range on the C4 volume control through the range of your quietest-to-loudest listening levels. In other words, when you are listening at the loudest levels, you would not want to volume knob on the C4 to be at 9:00 o'clock. Rather, with the volume control knob on the C4 set to something like 2:00 o'clock, adjust the P2200 attenuators so that the volume level is as high as you would ever want.

Then your listening sessions will always have the C4 volume knob somewhere at or below 2:00 o'clock. The C4's abilities will be well utilized. And the C4 volume pot will spend much of its time near the middle of its range where stereo tracking is typically better than it is near the lower end.
 
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Set upstream devices to midrange and use the C4 as your main volume adjustment. readjust the upstream devices to match volume levels between each other. The amplification stage right before the power amps should be used as your primary adjustment,

this kind of agrees with roger2 except I wouldn't start with any device at maximum.

Dougt
 
Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, much appreciated. Lots to consider.
Just a thought in relation to the signal source. I like the idea of prioritising the optical output but looking at the DAC the USB route appears to have a higher quality signal potential, as one reviewer noted... “The “HD” USB input, as it has become known, is thoroughly modern. All the bells and whistles are there including up to 384kHz PCM support and DSD64/DSD128 via DoP.”
Given this, can or should the optical signal still be seen as the better option?
 
Hifibythekg said:
Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, much appreciated. Lots to consider.
Just a thought in relation to the signal source. I like the idea of prioritising the optical output but looking at the DAC the USB route appears to have a higher quality signal potential, as one reviewer noted... “The “HD” USB input, as it has become known, is thoroughly modern. All the bells and whistles are there including up to 384kHz PCM support and DSD64/DSD128 via DoP.”
Given this, can or should the optical signal still be seen as the better option?
Click to expand...

Questions...

Were those comments referring to your DAC, or your TV?
If the DAC, were the comments comparing your DAC's optical input vs its USB input? Or was it comparing your DAC's USB input to the USB input of some other DAC?


The main benefit of using optical, IMO, would be to eliminate the TV volume control on its USB output. I am not an expert on digital audio. I believe that optical is the best means of transmitting a digital signal, but would not swear to it. So I am not so much touting optical over USB. Rather, eliminating one unnecessary (and possibly sound degrading) control from the signal chain.


There are two very different means of signal transmission going on in your system: digital and analog. From the DAC (digital-to-analog-converter) output and everything after, the signal is analog, which is "old-school" audio standard. With an analog signal, the goal of choosing gain (volume) settings is to find the best level without going too high which would clip the signal, or going too low which would diminish overall sound quality. With analog, you want to be below clipping, but as far as possible above the noise floor. This concept has been mentioned a couple times in this thread already.

The digital signal portion of your system is the link from the TV to the DAC, and then the 1st half of the DAC. Digital is a whole different can of worms vs analog. Analog deals with (widely) varying electrical voltages and currents: digital is a stream of 1's and 0's. Again, I am not expert in the area of digital music signal processing, but have done some reading on the topic when I was considering a miniDSP. My take away from that, is that where digital signal processing becomes problematic is in attenuating the signal, i.e. digital volume control . In analog, a variable resistance is a simple way to deal with controlling the strength of the (electrical) music signal. You can't use resistance (an electrical parameter) to control digital signal level. And how you actually do control volume in the digital realm...I could not describe...but I do recall reading some pretty complex and convoluted "solutions" for this problem, none of which were without compromises, and TBH, this is one of the reasons that I decided not to proceed with the miniDSP.



Back to your system, the DAC has a level control on its output. I do not know whether this is done in the digital or the analog portion of that device. I would hope analog, and it may be worth looking into if you are curious. Even if the output level control of the DAC is digital, I would think that it would be better than the TV output control. But whatever it happens to be, I believe you're stuck with using the DAC's output volume control. IF the un-attenuated output signal from the TV is acceptable to your DAC input (which I assume to be the case), then I believe that there is nothing to be gained, and there is potential of degrading the signal, by using the volume control on the TV.

As for USB vs optical, as I said before I am not certain. I think optical is best but someone may tell me that is not the case, or possibly there are pros and cons to each method. You may be able to discern something from the spec sheets of either your TV or your DAC. And a second close reading of the comments you quoted would be good (keeping in mind that not everything one reads on the internet is accurate). But if you ultimately go with USB, I would try that with the TV's volume control at 100%, as long as the DAC has no problem with that. Spec sheets....
 
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Yes, thank you.
This data sheet from Chord lists a higher spec output for USB over optical... but then again there’s the advantage of optical having no noise...
Does this info affect any reasoning as to which input should result in ‘superior’ sound at the end of the amplification chain as it emerges from the speakers?
B047A5EA-01F9-42CF-B36F-20AB0E9D0CB9.png
 
Hifibythekg said:
Yes, thank you.
This data sheet from Chord lists a higher spec output for USB over optical... but then again there’s the advantage of optical having no noise...
Does this info affect any reasoning as to which input should result in ‘superior’ sound at the end of the amplification chain as it emerges from the speakers?
View attachment 2375847
Click to expand...

Yes, you're right. I see higher spec for the HD USB inputs vs the optical inputs on the DAC. No specs for the outputs. It is important to keep clear on input vs output.

Again, I am not an expert on digital audio. But in this DAC the HD USB input is 32-bit/384KHz , which do look like better numbers than the optical input at 24-bit/192KHz. There are likely other trade-offs in the USB vs optical question. I googled it last night and that seemed to be the case. Also note that the other USB input on the DAC has specs inferior to its optical input.

To settle the USB vs optical question for your system specifically, the next logical step would be finding out what are the specs of the USB and optical outputs on the TV. I would suspect that the DAC is designed to a higher standard as relates to audio signal handling as that is its sole purpose for being. The TV on the other hand, does other things. So audio might not have been as high a priority in its design and it could possibly be the weak link in the chain. Is it possible that the USB output on the TV is inferior to its optical output? Or, is it possible that the TV USB output specs are not as good as those of the DAC HD USB input (if so, the lower spec would be the limiting factor) ? That is what I would want to know next. Are you able to get those specs?

In either case, whether you choose USB or optical for the cable connecting TV to DAC, I would run that signal full strength and eliminate the TV digital volume control from the signal chain. IMO the TV digital volume control is very likely to be the weakest link in the entire system. Poorly implemented digital volume control diminishes dynamic range.



I just noticed that the HD USB inputs on the DAC may require a driver to be installed for certain sources.
 
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Thanks @Hifibythekg

What is the model number of your Sony Bravia TV? I might be able to find something for it online if I knew its model number. Do you have an owners manual for the Bravia? What you attached above is for the Chord DAC, the same specs that you posted earlier
 
Apologies for posting that twice.
The tv is a Sony KD -55XH8005.
I think that the Chord Hugo DAC has a digital volume control which doesn’t have the type of construction of analogue pots, although I don’t know if such devices also have their own disadvantages.
 
Yes, after some more thought it seems it would cheaper and easier for the DAC designers to use digital volume control. I am not familiar with DACs in general, but don't recall having seen one with a volume knob.

Also having now given it more thought, IMO you should try the Chord DAC without activating its volume control. See how strong this output would be vs the CD player output. If they are similar in strength then you can eliminate the DAC volume control, as well as the one in the TV. It could be that the DAC's unattenuated output is standard line level analog.


I will see if I can find any specs or an owners manual for your TV looking for any clues about which output might be preferred.
 
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I was not able to find specs or an owner for your specific Sony Bravia model. But I found this following page of specs from a manual for Sony KD-55X8200E:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1289198/Sony-Kd-55x8200e.html?page=17#manual

For that Bravia model the specs are:
Optical output 16bit/ 48kHz
USB Ports 1 & 2 are USB 2.0 ("High speed USB")
USB Port 3 is USB 3.0 ("Super Speed USB")

For that model of Sony Bravia, the optical audio output specs are inferior to your DAC optical inputs. And the USB outputs on that model appear to be better, for audio, than its optical outputs. So assuming that the audio outputs specs for your Bravia are similar to that Bravia, I would say use USB output (port #3 if it has that) to connect TV audio to your DAC.

Elsewhere I found reference to settings in the TV for audio output stating that it can be either "FIXED" or "VARIABLE". Sorry I forgot to copy that link. But it is just one simple setting. "VARIABLE" means that the TV volume control (and remote) alters the audio output level, FIXED means that TV volume control does not affect audio output. I would use FIXED if audio quality is the most important consideration, to eliminate one digital volume control. If convenience is the top priority, then use VARIABLE so that the TV remote can control audio volume.

As for the DAC output I would try it not using volume control as mentioned in post above.

And Yamaha C4 and P2200 settings as per post #8.


That's all I got. Have fun dialing in your system and enjoy those nice Yamahas :beerchug:



 
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