SimplySound
Kent Engineering & Fondry
Not that I ever met any of them, but I got that vibe on the boards about Fried... John Wright, not so much!
Fried Sub/Sat speaker system
- Thread starter Ohighway
- Start date
Not that I ever met any of them, but I got that vibe on the boards about Fried... John Wright, not so much!
JimPA
Distinguished Member
I think many people overlook his resume. He was the first importer of the Quads to get started.
The IMF trademark was registered in 1961. The guy knew most of the legends in audio.
Many of the highly sought after vintage components mentioned on this forum were designed by some of his friends in the audio community.
http://www.stereophile.com/news/03404005Irving
Fried was from Philly which is a pretty tough crowd, conceited is the norm for this area LOL.
The Fried designs are simple and complicated at the same time.
The IMF trademark was registered in 1961. The guy knew most of the legends in audio.
Many of the highly sought after vintage components mentioned on this forum were designed by some of his friends in the audio community.
http://www.stereophile.com/news/03404005Irving
Fried was from Philly which is a pretty tough crowd, conceited is the norm for this area LOL.
The Fried designs are simple and complicated at the same time.
PR Audio
Super Member
Thanks, IMF I have heard off many times, and actually auditioned a pair at a friend's house. Now I know what it stand for.
Believe it or not, it's actually chip board or particle board construction that has been rounded off at the edges, sanded, and lacquered or had some other clear coat applied. The stuff is thick, heavy and --dead--. The subs actually had an application of something on them to approximate wood grain (think of the 'antiquing' people did to furniture back in the 70's.) I think the satellites look good, the subs.... not so much.
SimplySound
Kent Engineering & Fondry
Thanks for the Stereophile Obit. there SM! Gave me a much better appreciation for the man! :yes:
I know there has been a lot of back and forth on the boards about who the real genius was behind IMF (John Wright or Bud), but in their passing, I guess the best we should do is appreciate the beauty that came out of that collaberation! :thmbsp:
EDIT: Here's the Obit for John Wright... might as well give him his due as well!
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OK, more pix. In an attempt to figure out more about these I pulled a woofer out of one of the satellites. I tried getting the tweeter out but it was in there like concrete!! However I was able to get a small camera in the woofer hole, and snapped a pic of the tweeter. It's a Scan Speak D2008 - 8512. Now the woofer....I'm not sure what it is. It has the following stamped on it: G620 and 1036, and 8920. Also 8 ohms. No manufacturer name. Any clues out there ? BTW, the satellites are heavy for their size. Just under 18lbs. each!!
Back of satellite mid/woofer. Any clue on brand ??
Front of mid/woofer. Looks like it's been refoamed . Wonder if that dustcap is the correct size? Looks too big to me.
Looking in the cabinet. Lots of foam. Also note black foam plugs in small 'ports'.
Scan Speak D2008 - 8512. Note white putty on cabinet between woofer and tweeter mounting areas.
Crossover with a shitload of capacitors. Also note strange wiring, twisted multiple wires going to each connector ???
Back of satellite mid/woofer. Any clue on brand ??
Front of mid/woofer. Looks like it's been refoamed . Wonder if that dustcap is the correct size? Looks too big to me.
Looking in the cabinet. Lots of foam. Also note black foam plugs in small 'ports'.
Scan Speak D2008 - 8512. Note white putty on cabinet between woofer and tweeter mounting areas.
Crossover with a shitload of capacitors. Also note strange wiring, twisted multiple wires going to each connector ???
Attachments
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SimplySound
Kent Engineering & Fondry
WOW, now THAT is a magnet!!! And look at that stamping... that is a nice build and screams quality! Interesting to see the screen on the back side of the motor... wonder what that's all about? :scratch2:
And yeah, that Scan-speak looks original! They are still being produced and here's some info here.
And I'm with ya on the X-Over wiring... I wonder if the twists were to try to reduce the impact of induced EMF? :scratch2:
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frommerstop
Super Member
Having had the pleasure of meeting, and briefly discussing speakers with "Bud" (yes, he asked me to call him Bud, but I suspect he said that to everyone) on two occasions, once in the mid eighties, and finally not long before he passed away, in the late nineties, I can say he didn't strike me as either conceited, nor condescending. Having been accused of both of those myself, on numerous occasions, I think I'd recognize the traits.
At least to me, in person he was very gracious, and willing to explain his ideas, and even how they were influenced by others. I remember talking with him about my speakers, and he gave good insight, and perspective on their strengths & weaknesses, compared with some of his designs. Never talking down any of the brands we discussed, and even offered some placement ideas for my Quads... all the while trying to sell me on adding his subs. He seemed proud of his speakers, and conveyed confidence that they were among the best out there, but I can't see anyone with his track record, & experience, NOT feeling that way.
I was saddened to hear of his death a few years ago, having hoped to talk with him again.
Here's a link to a nice little write up from Stereophile, when he passed away in '05.
http://www.stereophile.com/news/03404005Irving
canuckaudiog
On a quest for high fidelity
Having had the pleasure of meeting, and briefly discussing speakers with "Bud" (yes, he asked me to call him Bud, but I suspect he said that to everyone) on two occasions, once in the mid eighties, and finally not long before he passed away, in the late nineties, I can say he didn't strike me as either conceited, nor condescending. Having been accused of both of those myself, on numerous occasions, I think I'd recognize the traits.
At least to me, in person he was very gracious, and willing to explain his ideas, and even how they were influenced by others. I remember talking with him about my speakers, and he gave good insight, and perspective on their strengths & weaknesses, compared with some of his designs. Never talking down any of the brands we discussed, and even offered some placement ideas for my Quads... all the while trying to sell me on adding his subs. He seemed proud of his speakers, and conveyed confidence that they were among the best out there, but I can't see anyone with his track record, & experience, NOT feeling that way.
I was saddened to hear of his death a few years ago, having hoped to talk with him again.
Here's a link to a nice little write up from Stereophile, when he passed away in '05.
http://www.stereophile.com/news/03404005Irving
That's certainly a more fair assessment and paints a better picture than what I have conveyed. Thanks for that tidbit.
Irving was most certainly a very interesting character and had an influence on the high-end hi-fi industry. Were his ideas far-fetched, crazy, out of this world or logical, founded, way ahead of his time and above all some of the best out there? Only time will tell. However I await with baited breath about the sound of these Frieds over the IMF's. Considering the two have a very interesting relationship, sharing a similar name and all.
Thanks for all the information so far guys, I've learned a lot from this thread.
kfa888
Addicted Member
Vented pole. Semi typical but usually also has a fabric dustcap so maybe Ohighway is right thinking it might have been replaced. I would think as much thought went into the cab venting you would want this right. All Fried XO's seem overly complex and wired. This one seems no exception. The guy liked some complex XO's for sure.
Screen on back is for VC venting. Usually accomplished as shown, or by using a screen type dust cap in front.
That tweeter is , more specifically a D2008 - 8512.... the type that uses ferrofluid (8511 does not). It's still available from Madisound....
Not sure about the wiring.
I usually see either/or. Vent in back -or- vent in front using screen type dustcap. Got any idea what brand that woofer is ? That's the mystery of the moment.
PR Audio
Super Member
I'm pretty sure the twists are for that purpose, nice touch, that is going the extra mile...:thmbsp: Though it looks rustic, I like that XO, I'm sure lots of though in design went into it, and though rustic, it screams quality.
...Having been accused of both of those myself, on numerous occasions, I think I'd recognize the traits.
An honest man...Good!!!
JimPA
Distinguished Member
The Fried crossovers are not complex at all, they are simple first order designs.
Fried gave the option of bi amping but when he later converted to a series configuaration on all his speaker designs bi amping was no longer possible.
The 12mh 14 guage air core inductor in the sub crossover adds 1 ohm of Re. but does raise the driver Qts. This gives a flatter impedance over the subwoofer bandwith.
Qts' =Qts. Re+Rs/Re
The stuffing density in the sub enclosure compensates for this added Re. of raising the driver Qts.
The Hiquphon 2092Fs can be used as a drop in replacement for the Scan Speak 2008. This is one reason why all the faceplates were 92 mm on the Hiquphon tweeters later used by Fried.
The Rc tweeter contour circuit of 2mfd and 2 ohm Re. on the tweeter circuit shelves the low end response of the tweeter on the C2 model..
Fried also used the Rc tweeter contour circuit on the B2, C1 and earlier C2 that all used the Dynaudio D-28H tweeter. The link below shows this on B-2
model that used the Dalesford oem 5" mid bass driver.
https://fc4c34f9-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...2HiEd8zkxFCe69J0-Q1CrYy-ZEZkA=&attredirects=0
Fried gave the option of bi amping but when he later converted to a series configuaration on all his speaker designs bi amping was no longer possible.
The 12mh 14 guage air core inductor in the sub crossover adds 1 ohm of Re. but does raise the driver Qts. This gives a flatter impedance over the subwoofer bandwith.
Qts' =Qts. Re+Rs/Re
The stuffing density in the sub enclosure compensates for this added Re. of raising the driver Qts.
The Hiquphon 2092Fs can be used as a drop in replacement for the Scan Speak 2008. This is one reason why all the faceplates were 92 mm on the Hiquphon tweeters later used by Fried.
The Rc tweeter contour circuit of 2mfd and 2 ohm Re. on the tweeter circuit shelves the low end response of the tweeter on the C2 model..
Fried also used the Rc tweeter contour circuit on the B2, C1 and earlier C2 that all used the Dynaudio D-28H tweeter. The link below shows this on B-2
model that used the Dalesford oem 5" mid bass driver.
https://fc4c34f9-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...2HiEd8zkxFCe69J0-Q1CrYy-ZEZkA=&attredirects=0
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Interim report:
1) I've spent some time listening to these and can report that they have a very open spacious sound to them. The transmission line subs also put out prestigious bass as would be expected. However I also am sensing some harshness in the overall sound. Possible causes? The PO had installed some felt strips on either side of the tweeter to control diffraction. Perhaps he was having a problem with harshness too.
2) I am trying to characterize the speakers in the form of driver identification and crossover mapping. The only known driver at this point are the tweeters which are Scanspeak D2008 units. The mid/bass woofer has been pulled, photographed, and posted and I'm hoping someone can identify it. I have not yet pulled the 10" woofer out of the sub. I sketched out the satellite crossover today, and will sketch out the sub crossover later today or tomorrow. Once I have both I'll clean up the sketches to make them readable and post them here. Hopefully those that are familiar with crossovers can scrutinize and comment. I'll also post showing how they're connected as it's a bit of a mystery to me why it is the way it is.
3) I'll check the speakers on other equipment. I admittedly have a somewhat unknown piece in the chain in the form of an old JFET preamp I just acquired. I'll re-install my other preamp and test again. I'll also likely hook them up to my Pioneer SA-9900 to see how they sound on a known quantity solid state amp .
Stay tuned. If anyone can provide a solid identification on that mid/bass driver I'd appreciate it.
1) I've spent some time listening to these and can report that they have a very open spacious sound to them. The transmission line subs also put out prestigious bass as would be expected. However I also am sensing some harshness in the overall sound. Possible causes? The PO had installed some felt strips on either side of the tweeter to control diffraction. Perhaps he was having a problem with harshness too.
2) I am trying to characterize the speakers in the form of driver identification and crossover mapping. The only known driver at this point are the tweeters which are Scanspeak D2008 units. The mid/bass woofer has been pulled, photographed, and posted and I'm hoping someone can identify it. I have not yet pulled the 10" woofer out of the sub. I sketched out the satellite crossover today, and will sketch out the sub crossover later today or tomorrow. Once I have both I'll clean up the sketches to make them readable and post them here. Hopefully those that are familiar with crossovers can scrutinize and comment. I'll also post showing how they're connected as it's a bit of a mystery to me why it is the way it is.
3) I'll check the speakers on other equipment. I admittedly have a somewhat unknown piece in the chain in the form of an old JFET preamp I just acquired. I'll re-install my other preamp and test again. I'll also likely hook them up to my Pioneer SA-9900 to see how they sound on a known quantity solid state amp .
Stay tuned. If anyone can provide a solid identification on that mid/bass driver I'd appreciate it.
Jon_Logan
Addicted Member
YMMV, but I had one of those Fried subs. I don't know if it was the same as you have, but it was a two transmission line deal with each transmission Line exiting at opposite ends of the box.
It had a couple of what looked like KEF Bextrene 8" drivers, but I'm only going from memory. There were no badges on it, so maybe it was a copy of a Fried?
Anyway, I wanted to love it and there were some aspects that I did love.
What I did love is it did sound good if I stood in a particular spot.
What I didn't love was the dependency of a particular spot.
The thing was soooo placement dependent and never sounded that good. I couldn't figure it out. I had loved some TruSonic 8's that I had heard in a Transmission Line. Loved them. They absolutely kicked the ass of the Fried that I had.
I had tried reversing the phase, flipping the phase of one, moving to so many spots around the room (not easy). still, it sounded hollow.
Since wiring did not seem to fix the odd sound, my guess it was the mechanical layout of the sub. the transmission lines being at a fixed far distance, or something. It always sounded better with one of the sub's channels disconnected.
I ended up giving it away. I hope you have better luck.
It had a couple of what looked like KEF Bextrene 8" drivers, but I'm only going from memory. There were no badges on it, so maybe it was a copy of a Fried?
Anyway, I wanted to love it and there were some aspects that I did love.
What I did love is it did sound good if I stood in a particular spot.
What I didn't love was the dependency of a particular spot.
The thing was soooo placement dependent and never sounded that good. I couldn't figure it out. I had loved some TruSonic 8's that I had heard in a Transmission Line. Loved them. They absolutely kicked the ass of the Fried that I had.
I had tried reversing the phase, flipping the phase of one, moving to so many spots around the room (not easy). still, it sounded hollow.
Since wiring did not seem to fix the odd sound, my guess it was the mechanical layout of the sub. the transmission lines being at a fixed far distance, or something. It always sounded better with one of the sub's channels disconnected.
I ended up giving it away. I hope you have better luck.
JimPA
Distinguished Member
Gefco used 1056 numbers on all of their woofers.
Madsisound drivers were Gefco sourced. as were the some of the later Fried models in the 90's up to around 2003. The 1036 number is is a big question.
My best guess is that it could be a Precision Sound or Carboneau 6.5" someone replaced the original driver with.
I found another thread showing picures of the first Fried Model C and O .
The drivers look pretty trashed.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=6288716&highlight=Fried+Model+C#post6288716
http://imgur.com/a/Y4uRe
https://sites.google.com/site/mpbarneyspeakers/friedbiispeakers
The 1979 Sonkit brochure in pdf format shows the first model C designed by Fried.
Madsisound drivers were Gefco sourced. as were the some of the later Fried models in the 90's up to around 2003. The 1036 number is is a big question.
My best guess is that it could be a Precision Sound or Carboneau 6.5" someone replaced the original driver with.
I found another thread showing picures of the first Fried Model C and O .
The drivers look pretty trashed.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=6288716&highlight=Fried+Model+C#post6288716
http://imgur.com/a/Y4uRe
https://sites.google.com/site/mpbarneyspeakers/friedbiispeakers
The 1979 Sonkit brochure in pdf format shows the first model C designed by Fried.
OK, looked at the crossovers and tried to sketch up what I found. Hope I got it right...:scratch2:
Here's the satellite crossover. Not sure of the value of the air core inductor. On the left of the diagram is shown banks of capacitors in parallel. However each has a silver tube that looks like an electrolytic cap, but is marked with H10000 and H15000 respectively. Could they be very small inductors?
Here's the subwoofer crossover. Again not sure of the inductor value but it's a large one and has 99 written on it?
Now, the wiring scheme. Amp input is obvious, shown as A and B. Satellite lead G attaches to C on the sub crossover, and satellite H lead attaches to the D lead on the sub. Now, I've been instructed to attach satellite I lead to the E lead on the sub crossover. Does that seem correct? Anyway, I welcome comments. And questions if you have them.
Here's the satellite crossover. Not sure of the value of the air core inductor. On the left of the diagram is shown banks of capacitors in parallel. However each has a silver tube that looks like an electrolytic cap, but is marked with H10000 and H15000 respectively. Could they be very small inductors?
Here's the subwoofer crossover. Again not sure of the inductor value but it's a large one and has 99 written on it?
Now, the wiring scheme. Amp input is obvious, shown as A and B. Satellite lead G attaches to C on the sub crossover, and satellite H lead attaches to the D lead on the sub. Now, I've been instructed to attach satellite I lead to the E lead on the sub crossover. Does that seem correct? Anyway, I welcome comments. And questions if you have them.
Attachments
JimPA
Distinguished Member
The coil should look similiar to this if the correct gauge and value were used.
https://solen.ca/pub/index.php?cata...eau1=1&niveau2=4&niveau3=70&s1=2&s2=4&s3=&s4=
The crossover values in the sketch do not completely coincide with the Fried crossover plans?
The coil to the mid bass driver does look like a .5 mh 18 gauge which is the correct value.
The 2-2.2 mfd cap in series with the tweeter should have 2 ohm Re. connected in parallel with the cap. This could be the problem. you hear with the harshness.
The wires from the amp are connected to the sub [AMP IN ] on the back of the subwoofer.
You have to run the wires to the satellites from the sub terminal where it reads [TO SATELLITES]. to the satellites.
I hope this helps Ohighway.
https://solen.ca/pub/index.php?cata...eau1=1&niveau2=4&niveau3=70&s1=2&s2=4&s3=&s4=
The crossover values in the sketch do not completely coincide with the Fried crossover plans?
The coil to the mid bass driver does look like a .5 mh 18 gauge which is the correct value.
The 2-2.2 mfd cap in series with the tweeter should have 2 ohm Re. connected in parallel with the cap. This could be the problem. you hear with the harshness.
The wires from the amp are connected to the sub [AMP IN ] on the back of the subwoofer.
You have to run the wires to the satellites from the sub terminal where it reads [TO SATELLITES]. to the satellites.
I hope this helps Ohighway.
Right. The amp goes to the AMP IN terminals. And of course the satellites attach to the TO SATELLITES terminals. However don't forget there are THREE leads coming from my satellites, not two. It's where to hook that third lead (labeled I) that I'm not sure about. PO says it is supposed to hook to terminal marked E on the subwoofer. I'm not sure that looks right to me. What say you ?