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Garrard 401 Tone Arm recommendations

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Hi All, I recently acquired a garrard 401 without a plinth and tone arm. I have a dynavector Karat 17DS that I would like to use with this table. ( unless that’s a horrible decision?)( I’m open to other cartridge recommendations)

I’d like to keep the tone arm under a budget of 1200 dollars. I know most people recommend an SME3009 but I’d love to hear some other alternatives.

Looking forward to hearing some opinions.
 
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SME 3009 Series II or 3012 is a brilliant choice!
SME M2-9 of M2-12 is also great.

Other brands:
Jelco TK-850S / TS-850L
Dynavector DV-501 / DV-505 / DV-507
Technics EPA-100

I did not look at current prices.
 
Other good sounding choices, Micro Seiki MA-505 and Fidelity Research FR-54. Both would work well with your Dynavector and are reasonably priced on the used markets.
The FR-54 is a mid weight Fidelity Research and is more versatile with cart choices than some of their higher priced and more famous arms.
The MA-505 is a great arm that that works well with both idler and direct drive tables.

 
Appreciate the feed back. Will have to do some research. Should I avoid the sme 3009 series 3? I’ve seen a few of them for sale.
 
Not going to be much help but.....

If I had my choice I think I'd like to try an SME 3012r. Budget not with standing I'd save for it while I built a plinth.
 
I suspect the Karat wouldn't be an ideal combination with the SME Series III. Both components are wonderful, and they might work together, but, adaptable as it is, the Series III works best with high compliance cartridges, and I suspect the Karat would put more energy into the arm than it can handle gracefully.
I've had a Micro Seiki MA 505 - the straight arm version - and they are delightful and versatile arms. I used one with a Decca London - a tough cartridge usually best with damped unipivots - and it sounded great, so I second the recommendation. If the 505 has the optional damping system, so much the better.
 
Hi, The compliance of the 17D is to low for a SME arm of any type. You will have a cart / arm mismatch, plus the SME arms are easily bettered by many other arm now, including the V.

You need to look for a Medium Mass arm, the check the match suitability with the free Korf Compliance Calculator.

Also take the opportunity to go Under Hang, I am using a Dyna 10x5 in this configuration with a slightly heavier arm with no problems & fantastic sound.

Cheers
 
Ok wow. I did not realize this. So essentially I need a heavier arm. How do we feel about the Ortofon RMG 309? I think the V is a little out of my price range. I think I over paid a little for the garrard.

Also can you recommend some modern arms.

If I were to get an SME 3012, what kind of cartridge would you recommend?
 
Hi, The compliance of the 17D is to low for a SME arm of any type. You will have a cart / arm mismatch, plus the SME arms are easily bettered by many other arm now, including the V.

You need to look for a Medium Mass arm, the check the match suitability with the free Korf Compliance Calculator.

Also take the opportunity to go Under Hang, I am using a Dyna 10x5 in this configuration with a slightly heavier arm with no problems & fantastic sound.
Can you explain what you mean by underhang? I’m kinda new to all this
 
Can you explain what you mean by underhang? I’m kinda new to all this
Don’t worry about that - it’s a particular way of aligning the cartridge that goes against all common theories of cartridge alignment.

Whilst it can work, I’d stick to a normal arm, at least for now.
 
Hi All, I recently acquired a garrard 401 without a plinth and tone arm. I have a dynavector Karat 17DS that I would like to use with this table. ( unless that’s a horrible decision?)( I’m open to other cartridge recommendations)

I’d like to keep the tone arm under a budget of 1200 dollars. I know most people recommend an SME3009 but I’d love to hear some other alternatives.

Looking forward to hearing some opinions.
SME 3009 II for the win. What most 401 users used with one in the era, the Ortofon arms the other commonly used option. I like the SME 3009 II for most cartridges. It works well.
 
A brief explanation - most arms mount the cartridge at an offset angle and the stylus is placed at a point farther than the platter spindle (that's overhang). Exactly what angle and how much further (overhang) depends on the alignment chosen, but the idea is to minimize tracking error. A stylus in a pivoted arm travels a curved path, whereas the record was cut on a radius, so there will be error in the perpendicularity of the stylus to the groove. If you work it out with geometry, you will see that the conventional arm with overhang and offset angle has the least possible error - different alignments disagree on exactly where over the record playing area to place the least error, but they all do it the same way.
But offset angle means skating - if you look at the arm pivot and the goove where the stylus sits, you can see that the groove is at an angle to the pivot, so the arm is being dragged inward toward the spindle. This affects both distortion and stylus wear. So an outward force is typically used to counteract this, which is the antiskating mechanism on most arms.
But exactly how much force, and what part of the disc needs the most, and so on, are contentious issues, So we can fight about that too,
Meanwhile, DJs who are scratching have real problems with offset and antiskating, because when you move the record backwards, all the vectors go the wrong way and the stylus wants to jump out of the groove. And this isn't a minor consideration - the reason the Technics SL 1200 is still is production (and maybe even vinyl records themselves) is DJs. You may not think there are that many of them, but their buying power compared to that of vinyl oriented audiophiles is considerable.
Someone tried getting rid of the offset with a shorter straight arm and stylus more or less on the radius from the spindle, and it made scratching much easier (typically DJs use spherical styli which are pretty unaffected by minor tracking error - audiophiles are more likely to use elliptical or line contact styli which are much less forgiving).
In a straight arm, a stylus set at the radius at the record edge will traverse a path from zero error to quite high error and back to zero. Set at the radius in the middle of the record, it will do the reverse. A stylus set somewhat back of the radius will have half the error at the out edge, going to no error and then half the error at the middle, and then back through no error to half the error. So underhung is clearly the best compromise for DJs and, apparently, also for some audiophiles who dislike antiskating or some other aspect of conventionality. Recognize that there is skating with underhung arms, but first one way, and then the other...
There are also arms that have pivoted headshells that are underhung and claim to minimize tracking error. But they skate, just like the rigid arms - it's geometry.
Whoever said there are a variety of tastes was on to something...
 
it’s a particular way of aligning the cartridge that goes against all common theories of cartridge alignment.

Eh, Baerwald published & recommended Under-hang about the same time as his writings for the Off Set arm. I have built & am using a 15'' arm matching his recommendations & you would need to pay in excess of $10,000 to beat it's performance.
The commercial U/H arms available are NOT DJ arms at all, look at the Viv Labs arms & also What Hi-Fi choose the Yamaha 5000 T/T package, with an 8.4'' U/H arm as T/T of the Year a couple of years ago.

My current arm is a scaled down version of the 15'' arm, roughly the same Eff Mass but it uses a ceramic arm wand & therefore is much more rigid. I also am using a 12'' U/H as a 2nd arm on my T/T

Cheers
 

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Wow thanks for all the explanations. I really appreciate it. I think I might have messed up. I found a good deal on an sme 3009 series 2. It had been rewired. But what I didn’t realize was that it’s the improved version. So now I think I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. Was also looking at Ortofon rmg 309.


Are there ways to improve the improved sme 3009?
 
Wow thanks for all the explanations. I really appreciate it. I think I might have messed up. I found a good deal on an sme 3009 series 2. It had been rewired. But what I didn’t realize was that it’s the improved version. So now I think I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. Was also looking at Ortofon rmg 309.


Are there ways to improve the improved sme 3009?
It's ok - it's just meant for high compliance cartridges. There are a number or cartridges that will work and sound great with it!

The classic pairing is the Shure V15 series - Type III and Type IV usually get the most love. You'll want to replace the stylus with a Jico (Aftermarket as Shure doesn't make cartridges anymore) and if you can swing it - go for the SAS/B variant.

There are some MC cartridges that are great with the arm too - none are made anymore but they're simple enough to find and have retipped if necessary.
Denon DL-301MKII
Denon DL-110 (This one is still in production)
Denon DL-S1
 
You could just use and enjoy the arm - many people did, and still do. You can add mass plates if you need to increase the mass, but try without first - it might be just fine.
Buying what was once called (and widely thought to be) the best arm in the world doesn't sound like messing up to me.
Maybe not an ideal choice for the Karat - though you never know until you try. I used a Karat Ruby in an SME Series III, and it sounded good and behaved well. Knowing what I know now, I would have experimented with adding mass - I didn't have subterranean bass.
 
Yah you are right
You could just use and enjoy the arm - many people did, and still do. You can add mass plates if you need to increase the mass, but try without first - it might be just fine.
Buying what was once called (and widely thought to be) the best arm in the world doesn't sound like messing up to me.
Maybe not an ideal choice for the Karat - though you never know until you try. I used a Karat Ruby in an SME Series III, and it sounded good and behaved well. Knowing what I know now, I would have experimented with adding mass - I didn't have subterranean bass.
yah you are right. Let’s see how it works. Worst case I can and mass plates. Do you have any suggestions for mass plates?
 
One way of trying out the effect of mass is to listen as you add progressively more masses of BluTack (the audiophile approved British stickum) or Moretite on the top of the headshell - obviously you then have to rebalance the arm each time. That will give you some sense of what added mass does without the tedium of taking the cartridge out, stick in a new mass plate, screw it all back together, check alignment, raise the arm pillar, and so on...
Of course, some people like doing stuff like that - I did when I was younger and had more time. And maybe less sense.
 
Appreciate the feed back. Will have to do some research. Should I avoid the sme 3009 series 3? I’ve seen a few of them for sale.
I would avoid them ( flame suit on).
They have a knife edge bearing and unless thry are very fettled you end up with very average results.
A friend has an Opus 3 which he told me sounded absolutely horrible. We set it on on his Technics and it sounded fabulous,clearly the 3009 was doing something very odd indeed.
I am sure fully serviced and properly set up they can sound good but definitely not a first choice.
Fr64 and EPA-100 are both fab arms
 
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