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Getting to grips with turntables

TheFifthAce

TheFifthAce

New Member
Hi Guys,

I'm searching the local internet for my first TT.
I can tell you this much, I've looked at a couple of videos online, so I understand the basics.
But the more I watched, the more I understood that there is something that I simply can not judge, and that is the sound quality of specific TT's. More or less, because I've only ever heard a single Tehnics DD TT.

This is where I thought you guys could jump in and help me.

Since I'm a student, meaning that ''budget'' is always a priority, I would like to get as much bang for my buck as possible. This is why I would like to ask you for your help in choosing the ''best of the bunch''.
The bunch being the TT's I'll note below. They are currently available in my locality.

And yes, I'm going for Vintage. Not interested in USB's, BT's etc. Only pure sound quality and elegant simplicity.

My budget is 100€ (meaning up to 150€).

So, these are my options:
- Sansui FR D25 - 90€
- Sony PS 3300 - ~150€
- Technics SL-B2 - 125€
- Technics SL BD-20 - 85€ & another one for 50€
- Technics PL-B 210 - 80€
- Technics SL-B 210 - 40€ - What is the difference between the SL-B and the PL-B?
- Thorens TD 115 - 150€
- Miida m 6000 p quartz - 140€
- Rotel RP- 2300 - 160€
- Grunding PS 400 - 120€
- Uher PS-992 - 45€
- Elac 810 High Fidelity - ?
- Elac 760 - 70€

In order to simplify matters, lets assume all of these are in working condition. I can also post links, if they will help.

The nicest looking are the Rotel RP-2300, Miida m6000p, Sansui FR D25 and the Technics SL-B2, as well as the Sony PS 3300.

Thank you upfront for your help and kind regards,
TheFifthAce

P.S. Explanations alongside your answers are welcome.
 
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I don't think I'd be concerned so much about turntables sounding different from one another. As far as I'm concerned only those with deep pockets are able to debate that.

The cartridge you wind up will have far more influence on what you hear than the turntable.

I prefer automatics or semi-automatics but others distain them. I've owned full manuals but the convenience factor wins every time for me these days.

I am swayed by cosmetics and weight. Heavy and pretty get points on my score card.

If any of those you are considering have suspended platters, dismiss them immediately. They will skip with every footstep unless you happen to have a concrete slab for a floor.
 
I agree with the previous post which indicated the cartridge will have a bigger impact than the turntable itself. With that said, I would choose the thorens TD115 as I prefer belt drive versus direct drive. IMO, less to go wrong with a belt drive tt. I have several belt drive tt (including two thorens) and a few direct drive tts. All the belt drive works well but some of my direct drive turntables have speed issues.
 
62vauxhall said:
I don't think I'd be concerned so much about turntables sounding different from one another. As far as I'm concerned only those with deep pockets are able to debate that.

The cartridge you wind up will have far more influence on what you hear than the turntable.

I prefer automatics or semi-automatics but others distain them. I've owned full manuals but the convenience factor wins every time for me these days.

I am swayed by cosmetics and weight. Heavy and pretty get points on my score card.

If any of those you are considering have suspended platters, dismiss them immediately. They will skip with every footstep unless you happen to have a concrete slab for a floor.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with every point you have made.

1) turntables do sound different. I don't have deep pockets and my collection of 1960's and 1970's era turntables are very modest and I do hear quite a bit of difference between them

2) cartridges do not necessarily influence the sound more than turntables. Sometimes yes and sometimes no. The important thing to remember is that the cartridge needs to match the tone-arm. This will have the biggest effect on performance.

3) I prefer manual turntables over automatics for a couple of reasons. The first being their simplicity, less is more in the realm of repair and maintenance. The second reason is that when I listen to records, I sit and listen, the turntable is always within arms reach. If I need to do something else while listening, I use the FM Tuner or CD Player. No point in wasting the sound of vinyl if its just background music.

4) heavy turntables do not necessarily sound better than light weight turntables. My light as a feather AR XA sounds better than my heavy Technics SL 1800.
In terms of cosmetics, some would consider the AR homely, I see it as minimalist beauty.

5) I have several suspended sub-chassis turntables, Thorens, AR, Empire and have never had problems with them bouncing around. Again, when I listen to vinyl, I sit and listen. I'm not dancing or doing jumping jacks. If I feel the need for that type of physical activity, I listen to the FM Tuner.
 
I'd just go and listen to as many as you can,and make a decision based on what you can remember. Bring your own music as well.
 
TheFifthAce said:
I'll just post the links to the 5 nicest looking.

SONY PS 3300 - http://m.bolha.com/avdio-in-video/a...497062.html?aclct=1504271728&kw=sony+gramofon

RotelRP-2300 - http://m.bolha.com/avdio-in-video/a...523622.html?aclct=1506597922&kw=Rotel+RP-2300

Miida m6000p - http://m.bolha.com/avdio-in-video/a...9545806.html?aclct=1504896486&kw=Miida+m6000p

Sansui FR D25 - http://m.bolha.com/avdio-in-video/a...929270.html?aclct=1505894378&kw=Sansui+FR+D25

Technics SL-B2 - http://m.bolha.com/avdio-in-video/avdio/glasbeni-predvajalniki/gramofoni/technics-sl-b2-gramofon-1295736638.html?aclct=1505581887&kw=Technics+SL-B2,
Click to expand...
Okay, I have gone down this road myself in the past. I don't see a TT in your list that is very different from the others. Commodity direct drives as far as I can tell. If one of these is a belt drive manual, I would definitely go for it at the start of your record playing experience. The various arms, don't seem that much different either. Yes, an interchangeable head shell is fine if it's in good shape, but it's a point of failure and not needed if you don't have multiple carts. A integrated headshell simplifies things while your starting out. You can only afford one good cart. so make sure you can replace the stylus yourself. Keep it focused on playing the record. Someone said listen to them, I agree. If you listen to tables which are far out of your budget first, then go to the used shelf find a likely TT, have them set it up on the same system. Listen to the same music (you brought it with you, remember), and keep looking until you find one which sounds good to you. It is worth waiting, to find a good TT.

All the best in your search.
Chris
 
When on a turntable hunt a few facts go a long way to help make a decision. There are 2 important specifications that describe turntables, Rumble (sometimes called signal to noise ratio) and Wow and Flutter, a measure of speed stability. There is a website that contains an extensive data base of performance specs on turntables. It is here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable-database.php

Visit the site and register, its free and well worth the effort. It does not have specs on everything but it does have so many that you can get a real idea if a turntable is an impressive performer or just impressive looking.

How to use and read what you are looking at:

Rumble or Signal to noise measure the same thing and are given in units called decibels (dB). The bigger the signal to noise ratio (or the more negative the rumble spec) the quieter the turntable is. Thus, a turntable with a -55 dB rumble spec is 10 dB noisier then one with a -65 dB spec.

Wow and Flutter is a measure of how stable the speed is. Please note, it is not the same as speed accuracy. It does not tell you how close to exactly 33 1/3 RPM it is going but rather how much the speed varies. It is given as a percentage. In this case the smaller the better. Thus a table with a .05% wow and flutter spec is more stable then one with .08%

This is basically a compare and contrast exercise. In general, the better the specs of a turntable the better the music will sound. To you base to compare to, the Technics is considered one of the finest of the consumer grade turntables made back in the day. The specs for that were Rumble at -78 dB and Wow and Flutter at 0.025%. There are any number of turntables out there that equaled those and a few (though not many) that did better, but that level of performance in a properly functioning turntable is very good indeed.

The other part of the turntable that need consideration is the tonearm. Unfortunately, there are no specs that can actually help compare them objectively as there are for the turntable itself. In general however, very few manufacturers would put a poor arm on an otherwise fine turntable.

Now, having said all that, I would like to put a specific turntable on your radar. It can generally be had well withen your budget and it's specs match those of the Technics I mentioned above. It is the Pioneer PL-7. It is a fairly lighweight table so to keep out unwanted vibrations from the music being played you may have to mount it on a wall shelf secured to the vertical studs in the wall, but it is a very fine, fully automatic turntable that is just a quiet and stable as the Technics.

Good Luck with your hunt.

Shelly_D
 
TheFifthAce said:
The nicest looking are the Rotel RP-2300, Miida m6000p, Sansui FR D25 and the Technics SL-B2, as well as the Sony PS 3300.
Click to expand...

That's a start. Search for and read opinions on those. Whichever looks to have more pluses than minuses might be the one focus on.

It's a turntable, not a life's partner.
 
Ok ... a turntable with a removable headshell is less prone to failure than a fixed headshell's typically delicate exposed wiring / cartridge clips and of course it's much easier to mount and align a cartridge with a removable headshell.

I'd discard the Sansui from the list ... not from the best era for Sansui.

I've had a few Technics SL-B2 and similar models. Technic's belt drives aren't as good as their direct drives, but still decent. I have had problems with the plastic gear that operates the auto-return cracking on these as the plastic ages and shrinks.

Can't speak to the Miida. Reminds me a bit of some of the Hitachi turntables. The Rotel looks decent but I don't know them.

I think if the auto functions work ok (Sony's are prone to old grease that has dried-up) or you are comfortable doing a cleaning and re-lubrication, the Sony is a good option.
 
I kind of like the looks of the Thorens and that Miida reminds me of some Mitsubishi models, also marketed under the ITT name. Does it come with the extra cartridges in the picture? That's some added value though I am not sure they have stylii which probably means "not much value added"
 
I'd say either the Sony or the Technics SL-B2.

The Sony is a decent direct drive, made before their consumer line quality started to slip.

The Technics is a solid deck with a nice arm. The direct drive version (the SL-D2) is better, but it's not a huge leap.

The Rotel is a CEC-sourced deck with an AC synchronous motor. They're okay, but rather dull (IMO) and picky about belts and pitch.

The Miida link doesn't work. Sold?

The Sansui is cheap and plastic.
 
Hi guys,

great feedback I'm getting here, thank you for your response answers.

I'm already familiar with vinylengines and have searched for some of these (although not all were documented), but wasn't sure what the parameters meant.

So I'm struggling between the Rotel RP-2300 - which I really like how it looks, but have no idea how it sounds nor the history of the brand. The other choice is the Sony PS 3300, where the seller might be ready to go down from 250€ to 150€.

Or maybe keep with the Technics SL-B2?
Of all three only Sony is a DD.

Any feedback on these two are welcome.

Kind regards,
TheFifthAce
 
TheFifthAce said:
What does CEC-sourced mean?
And please explain is an AC synchronous motor better or worse than a DC?

Thanks,
TheFifthAce
Click to expand...

No idea what CEC means.

Neither AC Synchronous or DC is inherently superior to the other. The type of technology is much less important in this context then is the results, which can be objectively evaluated by means of speed accuracy (not found published very often), Wow and Flutter (commonly published) and to some extent Rumble (commonly published) but the Rumble figure also includes mechanical based noise from the platter as well as the motor.

Shelly_D
 
CEC a.k.a Chou Denki made turntables for many Japanese brands back in the '70s, typically the more "budget" end of any of those company's product lines.

The classic CEC-style deck has an AC synchronous motor (more on that in a minute) with a lever that moves the belt (size FR 25.7) to a different area of the motor pulley to switch between 33 and 45. The drive system is okay when it's working well. But at this age, there are invariably problems that need addressing. The motors are picky about belts. If it has the wrong belt to begin with, or when they stretch, or when there's any kind of build-up on the pulley, or when the motor mounts start to sag and the belt rubs on the speed shifting fork and/or doesn't sit properly on the pulley (seen this quite a bit) or when the oil in the platter bearing starts to gum up (also seen many like this) or when the motor itself has lost lube in its bearings, you'll have pitch issues.

An AC synchronous motor means there is no pitch adjustment. You get what you get. So any of those above issues will affect pitch and the only remedy is to figure out which problem(s) are the causes of the pitch issues and address them accordingly.
 
Speaking of CEC, very recently I exchanged five of my accumulated turntables for a high-ish end Pioneer full auto direct drive. One was a CEC BA-600. I rehabbed it first and although not expensively made, all it needed was a new belt, reapplying some silicon cue dampening and a new stylus. I was very surprised at how well it worked considering it's age and pedigree.

The shop It went to were surprisingly keen to have it. The following day they showed me what they did and to CEC's in general.

The walnut vinyl on the base was completely removed and whatever wood CEC used is going to be stunning stained and varnished. They told me it was some kind of Japanesd soft wood. I thought it was reminiscent of mahogany except a bit more verigated in color.

That place sells/reconditions/repairs some pretty high end turntables yet they were enthusiastic about the CEC. More so than the two silver direct drive Toshiba's they got from me. Also of CEC origin, according to them but which I thought were by Micro Sekei.
 
I would also recommend you start with the sony or the Technics. And I also agree that the cartridge/stylus is important, as is the receiver/preamp you will be using. A case in point, is I had a Marantz 1530 back in the day with a Yamaha P-350 table. I hated that table because the dust cover wouldn't stay up when I put it up. I had pretty well stopped playing records by the end of the 80s, until I got an NAD 7240PE. On this receiver, my records sounded so much better. The difference was the preamp more than anything else. I saw the same thing recently when I got back my newly restored preamp, and my speakers. I was about to sell a pair of speakers I had because they sounded dull, with low bass and very little midrange. With the newly restored preamp, they sounded great, and they are still here.

And playing the turntable will make a big difference too. You will find out what you like. I'm lucky because I have about 12 turntables at the moment I can hook up and play at any time, but I do have a few favorites. I still hate dust covers that won't stay up, and that table would be gone pretty quickly.
 
Always remember that this probably will not be the last TT you purchase, and you always want to reserve space to improve. Consider the condition and "status" of a TT with respect to probable re-sell value when you get ready to move on.

Your hands and arms are young and steady and you will probably not have any problems with a full manual TT. Before you reach 70 you will probably want to consider a full auto. YMMV.

Once you have a TT and start experimenting with the various tweaks, you will have a better idea of the features, functions and specs that you will want in your next, and future, TT(s).

Enjoy - - -
 
Only able to go by build quality of the tables, and my first choice would be the Sony. Looks to have the best arm, and a substantial plinth. Not terribly fond of that particular Technics. The Sansui would be a non starter for me. By default the second choice would be the Rotel, but I would prefer to have the Sony.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
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