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Getting to grips with turntables

62vauxhall said:
Speaking of CEC, very recently I exchanged five of my accumulated turntables for a high-ish end Pioneer full auto direct drive. One was a CEC BA-600. I rehabbed it first and although not expensively made, all it needed was a new belt, reapplying some silicon cue dampening and a new stylus. I was very surprised at how well it worked considering it's age and pedigree.

The shop It went to were surprisingly keen to have it. The following day they showed me what they did and to CEC's in general.

The walnut vinyl on the base was completely removed and whatever wood CEC used is going to be stunning stained and varnished. They told me it was some kind of Japanesd soft wood. I thought it was reminiscent of mahogany except a bit more verigated in color.

That place sells/reconditions/repairs some pretty high end turntables yet they were enthusiastic about the CEC. More so than the two silver direct drive Toshiba's they got from me. Also of CEC origin, according to them but which I thought were by Micro Sekei.
Click to expand...
Cool story.

Reselling anything with a real wood base is a breeze, especially if you can pretty it up. I'll hand it to CEC for making a lot of their decks physically attractive up through the mid 70s. After that, they got plastic-y like everyone else. That Rotel in the link, for example. I recently got a trade in on an MCS that was made by CEC as opposed to their typical Matsushita/Panasonic/Technics sourcing. Looks like this one. Not something that's ever going to get any better looking.
 
I would look at a European built table simply for the reason that parts are more easily sourced.
As an example I found an AR-XA locally for £60,in the UK these are as rare as hens teeth,I had to buy a replacement head shell from the states the cost including import taxes were more than the outlay of the table.
I have backed off from replacing the tone arm wires,though it isn't really required because if I stuffed that up,again I would have to buy in from the states,its not a complaint as its a beautiful looker and sounds fantastic.
Parts for Thorens are easily obtainable and fairly well priced.
 
Turntables are very much a personal thing. If you can audition any, do. Get a feel for it by playing a record or track or two yourself. Part of the goal is to listen, of course, but getting a hands-on feel for the thing is very informative as well. It helps to have a record that you like and are familiar with to try them out. Turn the volume up a bit and listen, not only to the music, but to the silences between tracks - quieter is better. Tap on the plinth with a finger while playing. Not hearing your tapping through the speakers is good - boom, boom, boom is bad. Put the tonearm in its resting place, and scratch the headshell with your fingernail. You should not hear much scratching through the speakers, if any. Pick up the turntable (not while it's playing, of course!). Heavier is not always better - light but solid can be good, but light and plastic-y less so. Try gripping the tonearm, and jiggle it to see if there is any play in the bearings. If there is any rattling or looseness, avoid it. See if the cueing, whether manual or automatic, is smooth and the descent nice and slow.

You should be able to get a good feel for whether you will likely enjoy its operation, sound, and looks, in person. I'd look at as many of the listed ones as is practical, even though none of them particularly appeal to me, myself. Be patient, and wait for one that really turns you on.

Good luck on your quest! :music:
 
Looks to me like the Miida Corporation is not a manufacturer but a marketer or distributor. There are numerous images of Miida turntables online and appearance wise, they are all over the map. One bore a resemblance to a Marantz, which was made by the aforementioned CEC company and I think the likeliyhood is good that CEC made the one you are considering. The tonearm assembly is certainly reminiscent of CEC.

There are some Fisher "Studio Standard" branded turntables that share that beveled edge and button configuration. Perhaps if you spent more time than I did Google searching "Fisher Turntable" and looking at the images, you will find a close match.

This might seem inconsequential or picky of me but I those buttons along the front look a little suspect. I would want to actually "reach out and touch" them to see if they felt solid or loose when actuating them.

And those cartridges pictured, 3 of them are without needles. Maybe that's so with all 5 so I would not really consider that a plus.
 
I noticed that there are no specs for the Miida. There are for the Pioneer and it is definitely a winner at .025% Wow and Flutter and better then 75 dB signal to noise. It is also a well know and well respected brand. That (well know and respected) happens for a reason, generally it is because they produced fine performing and reliable products. Based upon specs being available, and company reputation, I would agree with SaSi the Pioneer would be the way to go. Well worth the extra 30 Euros.

In looking at used turntables I have always steered clear of turntables that I could not find specs for. I might have passed up a gem or two, but I have also avoided a few dogs as well.

Shelly_D
 
If you have a modest budget I can see investing in TT from the 70's, but not much before then. They were pretty noisy. Tone arms have really improved over the years. I still prefer linear arms, but if you can afford a cartridge with more advanced stylus profile a linear arm isn't necessary in most cases. But the arm needs to match the cartridge. Early SME model 2 and 3 will fill the bill most of the time. The MK III is better suited for high compliant low tracking low mass cartridges. Where the model MK II handles almost everything else. I'm not fond of puck driven tables preferring well built belt drive, or better direct drive tables. I am not going to mention names, but TT companies where building TT was basically their only business or the Majority of their usiness usually out perform companies that built everything. There are exceptions of course.
 
TheFifthAce said:
Haven't even considered Pioneers, to be honest.
There are a couple of different models all in the same price range:
PL-200
PL-320
PL-335
PL-400
PL-740
Click to expand...

The 335 is the worst of the bunch but should still be acceptable. The 740 is the best performer but the other 3, 200, 320 and 400 are close in performance to the 740. The difference between those 3 and the 740 is probably not audible. Since the 335 is a belt drive and I like direct drives better I would probably steer clear of that one, however it is a very well executed turntable and with the right belt should perform fine as well.

Shelly_D
 
Here's a link for the PL-740.
http://m.bolha.com/avdio-in-video/a...oneer-pl-740-1322504678.html?aclct=1504716451

If it's quartz-locked, does that mean that it doesn't need a strobo and pitch control? As I see none of these Pioneers have a strobo.

Another question, are the specs on VinylEngine the only important measure? Because the Pioneers are better than all other that I've listed, including some Thorens and Technics TT's. Or are there any other measures/parameters/feels for comparing?

How does the Pioneer stack up to the Sony PS 3300 and Technics SL-B3 in your minds? The pioneer is an absolute winner by the specs.

Kind regards,
TheFifthAce
 
There is some variance in the rumble specs because they are weighted to match how we hear. At some point back in the day, that weighting standard was changed, resulting in some changes in how some equipment was specified. I am not at all sure how Thorens rated their equipment so that comparison could be a bit iffy. On the other hand, I would be confident that comparisons between competing Japanese brands (Technics and Pioneer) are indeed using the same rating systems. Remember that both Pioneer and Technics made a full line of equipment, from entry level to Top of the Line Competitive which could explain why that 740 looks better then the Technics. It might very well me. I haven't looked at the Technics specs.

Having said that there are other considerations that are not specified and so are very difficult to judge:

Vibration isolation. The Thorens brand usually uses a suspended platform that is very good at preventing acoustic feedback into the table but (in my case at least) the base requires a surface that does not itself vibrate to footfalls or music. Other ways to isolate from vibration is a very heavy and solidly built plinth like the Technics SL-1200. Some turntables are lightly built even with great specs leaving it to the user to provide the isolation mounting (Pioneer PL-7).

Also of consideration is the tonearm. The overall mass of the arm makes a resonant system with the cartridge and stylus that has a "resonant frequency". That is the frequency at which it is easiest to get the system vibrating. If the combination of the two puts that resonance in the audio band the tonearm will skip when playing a passage containing that frequency. (A friend mounted a Shure V15 III in an empire turntable and experienced that issue. I wound up with that cartridge after he went to a Stanton). In addition to the resonant frequency issue, there is the issue of friction in the bearings of the tonearm. Also of concern is the condition of those bearings in a used turntable.

Unfortunately, there are no published specs vibration isolation or bearing friction, (at least that I know of). The Vinyl Engine tonearm database sometimes lists the mass of the tonearm which will allow you to find cartridges that match it best to avoid the record skip issue my friend experienced.

I have found that as a general rule, a turntable with fine specs (like the Pioneer PL 200, 320, 400 and 740) would have fine arms capable of taking a variety of cartridges, just not every cartridge out there.

Shelly_D
 
I just looked at the Sony PS 3300 and the Technics SL-B3. In my thinking, the Technics is a mid line performance model, perhaps near as good as that company's belt drives got but not up to the standards that Thorens sets with their belt drives. Neither does it get to the level of their better direct drives. The Sony is a direct drive, but I would again speculate that it was not at the top of their line. The Pioneer PL-740 does look to my eyes like it was one of their TOL turntables for the production period.

Shelly_D
 
petemcfc said:
I would look at a European built table simply for the reason that parts are more easily sourced.
As an example I found an AR-XA locally for £60,in the UK these are as rare as hens teeth,I had to buy a replacement head shell from the states the cost including import taxes were more than the outlay of the table.
I have backed off from replacing the tone arm wires,though it isn't really required because if I stuffed that up,again I would have to buy in from the states,its not a complaint as its a beautiful looker and sounds fantastic.
Parts for Thorens are easily obtainable and fairly well priced.
Click to expand...

In Europe that's true. But in the USA, not necessarily. Stock Thorens headshells for TD 160 easily almost $100, the only alternative is a tonearm change with new armboard. Japanese S arms with SME fittings easy headshell swaps, common Japanese turntables reliable, easy parts from donors and easier repaired if you choose carefully whether belt or DD. Not knocking the Thorens either, I like them. AR XA headshells not cheap or easy (but you can swap the armtube from a Japanese table, and have common, cheap, and easy headshell options, and on par with Thorens performance)
 
The Thorens would be my first choice, the Rotel or the Sony would be my next choices. I don't have a drive preference, there are good and bad designs of all kinds of drives and they all have their pros and cons and it's folly to think that one is 'better' than another.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
In Europe that's true. But in the USA, not necessarily. Stock Thorens headshells for TD 160 easily almost $100, the only alternative is a tonearm change with new armboard. Japanese S arms with SME fittings easy headshell swaps, common Japanese turntables reliable, easy parts from donors and easier repaired if you choose carefully whether belt or DD. Not knocking the Thorens either, I like them. AR XA headshells not cheap or easy (but you can swap the armtube from a Japanese table, and have common, cheap, and easy headshell options, and on par with Thorens performance)
Click to expand...

I suggested European as I presumed that is the OPs location.
I did consider swapping the arm tube for a Technics but I went along the lines of if it aint broke leave it,
 
shelly_d said:
There is some variance in the rumble specs because they are weighted to match how we hear. At some point back in the day, that weighting standard was changed, resulting in some changes in how some equipment was specified. I am not at all sure how Thorens rated their equipment so that comparison could be a bit iffy. On the other hand, I would be confident that comparisons between competing Japanese brands (Technics and Pioneer) are indeed using the same rating systems. Remember that both Pioneer and Technics made a full line of equipment, from entry level to Top of the Line Competitive which could explain why that 740 looks better then the Technics. It might very well me. I haven't looked at the Technics specs.

Having said that there are other considerations that are not specified and so are very difficult to judge:

Vibration isolation. The Thorens brand usually uses a suspended platform that is very good at preventing acoustic feedback into the table but (in my case at least) the base requires a surface that does not itself vibrate to footfalls or music. Other ways to isolate from vibration is a very heavy and solidly built plinth like the Technics SL-1200. Some turntables are lightly built even with great specs leaving it to the user to provide the isolation mounting (Pioneer PL-7).

Also of consideration is the tonearm. The overall mass of the arm makes a resonant system with the cartridge and stylus that has a "resonant frequency". That is the frequency at which it is easiest to get the system vibrating. If the combination of the two puts that resonance in the audio band the tonearm will skip when playing a passage containing that frequency. (A friend mounted a Shure V15 III in an empire turntable and experienced that issue. I wound up with that cartridge after he went to a Stanton). In addition to the resonant frequency issue, there is the issue of friction in the bearings of the tonearm. Also of concern is the condition of those bearings in a used turntable.

Unfortunately, there are no published specs vibration isolation or bearing friction, (at least that I know of). The Vinyl Engine tonearm database sometimes lists the mass of the tonearm which will allow you to find cartridges that match it best to avoid the record skip issue my friend experienced.

I have found that as a general rule, a turntable with fine specs (like the Pioneer PL 200, 320, 400 and 740) would have fine arms capable of taking a variety of cartridges, just not every cartridge out there.

Shelly_D
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation.

The only thing putting me off of Pioneer is the fact that it's plastic, but I read a couple of reviews and people are quite happy with it.

Kind regards,
TheFifthAce
 
Not too sure about the plastic. My Pioneer PL-7 is also one of their high performance light weights, 5.9 kg. It looks and feels like plastic but is actually some kind of composite. The 740 might be the same. On the PL-7 it is supposed to be helpful for dampening vibrations. I will agree that it sure looks like plastic and if the hesitation is about its looks, then you get no argument from me. It looks like entry level. It performs like top of the line. Personally, I'm not too concerned with how the turntable looks, but that's just me. There are no bragging rights with friends and relatives who are more impressed with looks then performance, and we all want to be proud of our systems, right?

Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

Shelly_D
 
I was just looking over the manual for the PL-740. If it comes with the original cartridge you might want to take another look. They originally came with a Pioneer PN-5 MC moving coil cartridge. I don't know how that particular cartridge measures up in the world of moving coil cartridges but having one in my Thorens I can tell you they are desirable.

Shelly_D
 
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