Going after Vandersteen 2ci's tomorrow....pretty excited!

[tomlinmgt]

i dont see any Vandersteen 2Cis in that pic

That pic was taken a few weeks ago....didn't yet have the Vandies.

Another long listening session last night with the Vandies and KLH's. I retract my comment about liking the KLH's better. These two speaker models have a very different sonic character. Listening at a volume level that was apporaching loud, the KLH's were more forward and engaging with their dynamics... especially in the midrange as guitar and some vocal seemed louder and more up front. High end extension wasn't as good in the KLH's as the Vandies had more top end clarity and sparkle. I could actually feel more sonic energy coming from the KLH's....which I guess should be expected since all the bass and midrange was coming from one 10" forward firing driver whereas the Vandies spread the bass and mids across three drivers with one rear firing. As soon I switched over to the Vandies the sound became more balanced and relaxed and made the KLH's sound fatiguing in comparison. The overall presentation was just more refined...there was no loss of dynamics or sonic presence, it was just more widely and evenly distributed by the Vandies.

One observation that has me still thinking I have issues with room acoustics is that the sound of the Vandies improved dramatically when I changed my listening position, and this has been the case with any set of speakers I listen to in this room, but even more so with the Vandies. Normally I'm seated about 9-10 feet away from the speakers with the speakers spread 8-9 ft. apart. When I stand up the low end extension is better, bass louder and tighter, and the midrange and top end follow suit so everything stays balanced. As I move closer to the speakers, say to 5-6 ft away, this becomes even more pronounced. Have any of you experienced something similar and is this revealing anything in particular about my room's (poor) acoustics?

 

[Axcel]

Your having the same issues I did when I bought a pr of KEF 104.2's I heard so many glowing reviews I research for months and finally found a pr in Toronto. I tried them with a multitude of gear with and without an Eq. Changed there placement nothing worked Sold about 3 months later.Never been a fan of speakers that need special placement or a certain amount of power to make them sing. I run OHM I's and JBL L65's amongst others and they require nothing imho. Perhaps the Vandies are not meant to be??

 

[Negotiableterms]

If you look at the OP's listening space, it's quite likely there's some enormous peaks and valleys in the room. The walls are all as reflective as they can be, presumably so is the ceiling, and the floor is concrete with only an area rug. In that environment, room-sensitive speakers are just not going to work, and almost any speaker will require EQ just to sound reasonable. Hell, I'd be surprised if even a pair of Pipedreams could overcome that space.

Before changing any more gear, attack the room.

 

[relaximus]

... Before changing any more gear, attack the room.

Yep, that room is an acoustical engineer's worst nightmare. Reflections, standing waves, etc. Tack some old beach towels up on the walls, hang old sheets or blankets from the ceiling or invite over 20 or so friends to just stand around and listen again.

Respectfully,
Dave

 

[tomlinmgt]

Agreed, my room has issues. I've started a thread in Listening Spaces titled "Inexpensive material for curtains". Would any of you that are willing to lend a hand please check it out and chime in if you have anything to share or contribute.

 

[BULLWINKLE]

If you look at the OP's listening space, it's quite likely there's some enormous peaks and valleys in the room. The walls are all as reflective as they can be, presumably so is the ceiling, and the floor is concrete with only an area rug. In that environment, room-sensitive speakers are just not going to work, and almost any speaker will require EQ just to sound reasonable. Hell, I'd be surprised if even a pair of Pipedreams could overcome that space.

Before changing any more gear, attack the room.

Agreed. Room harmonics/disharmonics would be a big effect.

 

[bhunter]

If you look at the OP's listening space, it's quite likely there's some enormous peaks and valleys in the room. The walls are all as reflective as they can be, presumably so is the ceiling, and the floor is concrete with only an area rug. In that environment, room-sensitive speakers are just not going to work, and almost any speaker will require EQ just to sound reasonable. Hell, I'd be surprised if even a pair of Pipedreams could overcome that space.

Before changing any more gear, attack the room.

I concur. That room is open to all kinds of bouncing reflections. I remember when Richard designed the original 2 and they were always warm neutral. The OP should pop on over to the Listening Room Forum and start building some sound panels.

For the OP, the following is a nice read on room acoustics:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

 

[tomlinmgt]

I concur. That room is open to all kinds of bouncing reflections. I remember when Richard designed the original 2 and they were always warm neutral. The OP should pop on over to the Listening Room Forum and start building some sound panels.

For the OP, the following is a nice read on room acoustics:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Thanks for the link...I started reading over it last night and hopefully can start to implement some of the methods soon.

Going to try a few upstream changes this weekend as that won't require much time or effort (got the kids this weekend). I want to try cutting the pre and EQ out of the signal path so it's just straight CDP/tube DAC/amp. That way I can get a more accurate idea of the Onkyo 504's character. Then I'll pull the Onkyo amp and pre and replace with the Hafler 500 and run it with just the CDP and DAC and then add the Hafler 110 pre to see if it has much effect on the sound.

 

[Negotiableterms]

Given your room, you might want to try a tube pre. OTOH, you've already got a tube DAC, so more tubes might not make that big a difference. I'm interested to see what the Hafler 500 does instead of the 504.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Given your room, you might want to try a tube pre. OTOH, you've already got a tube DAC, so more tubes might not make that big a difference. I'm interested to see what the Hafler 500 does instead of the 504.

Me too. I'm pretty anxious to hear the results as the Hafler is freshly recapped and has been modded. I'm not going into this with big expectations, but everything seems to indicate this should net some noticeable changes for the better. It will be my first opportunity to do a good A/B test between two amps with a totally stipped down signal path. It's actually a little more exciting than swapping out speakers.

As a side note...
I must admit, I'm enjoying the challenge the Vandies have presented me. They've forced me to dig deeper into my total system and really start some serious tweaking. Up to this point it's largely been about speakers. But now I'm much more interestd in room acoustics, cables, interconnects, and simpler, higher quality upstream components. I fear the "killer little $500 vintage system" just isn't gonna cut it for me anymore....but I sure have enjoyed getting to know it!

 

[d2e8b8]

Will be interested to see the result of your changes.

On the Vandersteen site, there are some recommendations on placement of the speakers. They need to be away from the walls, back and sides (although mine - 2ce signatures, not 2ci - are not as away as I'd like due to room limitations).

Also, he recommends experimenting with toe-in in small increments. I ended up with a very slight toed in position.

My stands also allow the speakers to be tilted slightly and mine tilt back very slightly.

You know, in this hobby of ours the process of getting there is as much fun as the final result so just enjoy and have some fun .

ps. I agree with all the above comments about the room.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Are there any hard fast rules about whether the surface of the wall behind the speakers should be absorbtive or reflective if you have a rear firing woofer such as in my Vandersteens? First on my list of room treatments is floor to ceiling bass traps and absorptive panels at the first reflection point of side walls, ceiling, and rear wall. Just wondering what I should do with the wall behind the speakers.

 

[Negotiableterms]

Absorptive is the standard answer. Not cheap at $450 for a 75 yd roll, but you could call these guys and see if they have any partial rolls at a discount:

http://www.gretchken.com/acoustic_fabrics.htm

 

[tomlinmgt]

Alright, it's been a while since I last spoke of my new Vandersteen 2ci's and thought I'd give an update since many of you demonstrated interest in my situation.

Just a quick refresher.....I picked these up about a month ago. Once I got them home and hooked them up to my rig (Onkyo M-504, P-306RS Integra, Yamaha 31-band proEQ, Yamah 845 CDP, Grant Fidelity Tube DAC 09) I wasn't impressed at all. Many of you chimed in with recommendations and advice...thank you....and some were curious about this/that and the other and some had questions. I've learned and experienced more in the last month with these speakers than I have in the entire 18 months I've been messing with this stuff.

First let me say this....these speakers have taught me that when you get to a certain level of performance and capability you absolutely can not expect a "plug and play and your kickin' ass" scenario. It appears to me that sometimes you have to work to find the magic of some gear....and I respect the hell out of that.

The first thing I did was address my room's reflective acoustics. I built some 2.5'x6' absorption panels/bass traps and placed about a dozen 2'x4' acoustic celing tiles at first reflection points and on wall behind speakers. Next I got my hands on some much better speaker cable than my 12g landscape lighting wire....some Audioquest Hyperlitz 3 Midnights in a shotgun configuration so I could biwire. Then I started swapping out upstream gear...which I'll report on in just a moment. But before I go there I must mention that probably the most profound change came after the room's acoustics were tamed. Now, understand this is a work in progress but my initial attempts yielded some impressive results....so kudos to those of you who pointed out that I should tackle room acoustics first. .

Now, the upstream gear. From the Onkyo M-504/P306RS Integra combo I went to a modded Hafler 500/110 pre combo. A little better detail, definitely stronger bottom end and more extended top end with improved clarity, soundstage opened up and imaging was more discernable as well. The Hafler sounded stronger and didn't seem to be working as hard as the Onkyo, but it was a tad...oh, I think the word people like to use is "grainy". Just something about it wasn't smooth. It sounded very good, but it wasn't "sweet".

Next came a DAC swap from my Grant Tube DAC 09 to a PS Audio DAC. This netted an improvement in sonic clarity but at the expense of weakness at some frequencies. For instance, the sampling rate on the PAS DAC can be switched from 96 to 192khz. The lower rate netted better mid to upper bass and the higher rate better low end bass, so you had to choose which you wanted but one of the two was going to suffer. Regardless, the Vandy's sounded great at both sampling rates and it was at this point I noticed just how sensitive the Vandy's were to changes in the nature and quality of the signal. Hmm, so this is a "revealing" speaker....interesting.

At this point the sound of the Vandy's had improved noticeably....but I still wasn't as impressed as I thought I'd be. I had just picked up some ADS 1290/2's and my friend was wanting to hear them so we threw them in at this point. The forward, dynamic nature of the ADS's made them a lot of fun to listen to compared to the Vandy's and we left them in for the duration of the evening.

After about twenty or thirty minutes with the ADS's the Hafler went into protection mode and we decided to throw in my Phase Linear 700B. This netted a very impressive result as well. The PL was so much warmer and richer than the Hafler...it really was easier to listen to the very dynamic ADS's with the PL and I kept the ADS in the rig for a few weeks before I decided to put the Vandersteens back in.

Having been impressed with the PL and ADS combo I was anxious to hear the Vandy's with the PL and last weekend finally made that happen. Well, the combo proved to be an exceptional one 'cause the Vandy's just simply started doing everything better than before with the Hafler. Seriously....you name it, it improved. But I could still hear some things lacking a bit so just for kicks I decided to put the Grant tube DAC back in. This was a shocker. I've been thinking the PS Audio DAC was an improvement over the Grant....well, that may have been the case with the Hafler but certainly not with the Phase Linear. I think I found synergy here with the tube DAC, Phase Linear and Vandy's. It's the best sounding rig I've put together yet and now consider the Vandy's my finest sounding speakers (though I have many other candidates that I've yet to try with the PL/tube DAC). The Vandy's are clearly more laid back than the ADS's, but this gives them a controlled refinement that makes everything I play through them sound very, very good. The ADS's seem to have more sonic energy you can feel (it's fun...for while), but as far as an overall sweet, warm, dynamic, cotrolled, detailed, accurate sounding speaker with exceptional imaging and a big soundstage, the Vandy's take the cake.

 

[Negotiableterms]

Welcome to high end audio! It's a lot of work, but a lot of fun, and the sound gets better from here. I'm really pleased to hear you got the 2Ci's to work for you.

 

[dc270]

OMG......you shut down a Hafler! That took some doing I bet........

I am very pleased that you are well on your road to discovery and using some very good tricks in your bag of imagination to get the sound you are after. You are going far beyond the normal amp, pre, electronics c/o route- you are discovering the room as an integral part of the sound-as it should be.

Keep going Michael- you will pull back more of that "blanket" and discover even greater things you can pass along here. You done good!
DC

 

[JonVH]

Picked up the Vandersteens and Sound Anchor stands today. The placement of the speakers for the demo was far from ideal (two feet apart) but showed lots of promise. Got them back to my place and positioned them about two-and-a-half feet from the back wall and three feet from the side walls. With flat EQ I found the bass to be thin, midrange forward and a tad congested, and the top end approaching shrill. Hate to admit it, but I'm not particulary impressed. I'll try swapping out the upstream gear and see what happens. Room treatments probably wouldn't hurt, but I have several sets of speakers that sound better with the same gear and room...

You basically described my experience as well, though I found the top end rolled down a bit. There was little bass to speak of and they just sounded unclear compared to others. I used them with a Quad 909 John Curl Parasound, Naim. Quite a bit of room treatment in place here. I also heard a set at a dealer, same thing they just didn't sound realistic or detailed to my ears. Others have said this before too. They're very "speakerish" sounding despite the time I spent with them.

 

[tomlinmgt]

You basically described my experience as well, though I found the top end rolled down a bit. There was little bass to speak of and they just sounded unclear compared to others. I used them with a Quad 909 John Curl Parasound, Naim.

All I can say wrt to my personal experience with the 2ci's is these speakers have to be fed the right combination of circumstances and gear to shine. No doubt, my first listen with different upstream gear and an untreated room compared to what I'm using now in a (somewhat) treated room was horrid and very disappointing. But now I can actually play them with flat EQ and enjoy it.....but for me just a touch of EQ in the right places results in a very, very rewarding listening experience and takes these speakers to places I honestly didn't think they'd be able to go. They've raised the bar in my listening space.

 

[tomlinmgt]

OMG......you shut down a Hafler! That took some doing I bet........

Ha! Yeah....i shut down the Hafler alright. Had the red overload lights on the Vandy's blinkin like a dollar store Christmas decoration! Honestly though, the Hafler had a few little problems that our mutual "whiz kid" friend Jon overlooked.

I am very pleased that you are well on your road to discovery and using some very good tricks in your bag of imagination to get the sound you are after. You are going far beyond the normal amp, pre, electronics c/o route- you are discovering the roo as an integral part of the sound-as it should be.

Keep going Michael- you will pull back more of that "blanket" and discover even greater things you can pass along here. You done good!
DC

Hey man...this is all YOUR fault you know! Look at what you created back a year and a half ago when you sold me that Carver integrated and Polk Monitor 10's! I've been chronic ever since!!

 

[AudioSoul]

Picked up the Vandersteens and Sound Anchor stands today. The placement of the speakers for the demo was far from ideal (two feet apart) but showed lots of promise. Got them back to my place and positioned them about two-and-a-half feet from the back wall and three feet from the side walls. With flat EQ I found the bass to be thin, midrange forward and a tad congested, and the top end approaching shrill. Hate to admit it, but I'm not particulary impressed. I'll try swapping out the upstream gear and see what happens. Room treatments probably wouldn't hurt, but I have several sets of speakers that sound better with the same gear and room. I'm not giving up on them. There has to be a reason why they're so highly regarded and I intend to find out.

The way you describe the Sound makes me think there is something wrong with them. Your decription does not sound anything like the ones I have owned......:scratch2: