Grado cartridges - low or high output - and why ?

[MisterDK]

Considering trying one or two of the current Grado “woodie” cartridges and wondering if there’s a good reason to pick either low or high output version over the other. I can handle either with a very quiet phono preamp and/or SUT’s that I have.
Have any of you tried - and compared both low and high output versions of the same Grado?

 

[Redd House]

Opus3?
I really can't comment because I haven't compared the two but I'm leaning towards high output for an Opus3 buy. Will be following the thread.

 

[MisterDK]

Opus3?
I really can't comment because I haven't compared the two but I'm leaning towards high output for an Opus3 buy. Will be following the thread.

Yes; I was thinking about Opus3 and/or Sonata3. Surely, some of us here have tried and compared the low to high output versions of either - or other Grado which comes both ways..

 

[mkane]

Marc preferred LO if memory serves me. I have a few earlier G's, V1, V2+, M's both LO & Hi and can't hear a difference.

 

[doctor fuse]

If you've got quality pre-pre-preamplification, LO is the way to go, isn't it?

 

[halkaloogie]

I've never actually tried the high outputs, but I'm a huge fan of the low output Grados. I have a handful that I got from Marc (RIP) years ago.

 

[MisterDK]

If you've got quality pre-pre-preamplification, LO is the way to go, isn't it?

Not so sure..
I do have a fairly good quality phono preamp, not a head amp. It offers gain to 60dB, plus all the load settings I could want for most cartridges. It’s (relatively) quiet on all gain settings. I also have several SUT’s, so I could use one of them along with a lower gain on the phono preamp. I’m presently using this phono pre with an SUT, and with an AT-OC9ML/II MC cartridge. Background is very quiet and the AT puts out only 1/2 the voltage of the low output Grado carts I’m looking at.. I could run a mid gain setting with a LO Grado, or a low gain setting and use a lower ratio SUT than my currently used one.

I know that the main reason to go with a lower output MC cartridge is ‘cause of less (moving) coil mass, but the Grado uses fixed coils anyway.
Could you explain why, if possible, the lower output version should sound better - when coil mass isn’t moving..?

 

[doctor fuse]

Not so sure..
I do have a fairly good quality phono preamp, not a head amp. It offers gain to 60dB, plus all the load settings I could want for most cartridges. It’s (relatively) quiet on all gain settings. I also have several SUT’s, so I could use one of them along with a lower gain on the phono preamp. I’m presently using this phono pre with an SUT, and with an AT-OC9ML/II MC cartridge. Background is very quiet and the AT puts out only 1/2 the voltage of the low output Grado carts I’m looking at.. I could run a mid gain setting with a LO Grado, or a low gain setting and use a lower ratio SUT than my currently used one.

I know that the main reason to go with a lower output MC cartridge is ‘cause of less (moving) coil mass, but the Grado uses fixed coils anyway.
Could you explain why, if possible, the lower output version should sound better - when coil mass isn’t moving..?

My ignorance - I just assumed the LO Grados would have less coil mass. Still, they would have less windings, wouldn't they? That would result in less mass, I would imagine, which would make for a quicker response and potentially better upper frequencies. This is all just in my imagination, I've never heard the better Grados.

 

[MisterDK]

My ignorance - I just assumed the LO Grados would have less coil mass. Still, they would have less windings, wouldn't they? That would result in less mass, I would imagine, which would make for a quicker response and potentially better upper frequencies. This is all just in my imagination, I've never heard the better Grados.

I imagine that they do have less coil mass, but the coils are stationary. They’re MI, not MC cartridges. I really don’t know either, about which would (and do?) sound better, so I had to ask.
Though I have a couple older Grados here that need styli, I’m almost embarrassed to say - I’ve never had a Grado in use on any of my tables.

 

[cafe latte]

No reason to go low output, (I have both) there is no advantage in moving mass and yes inductance is lower, but it is low enough in the high output that it does not affect square wave so no reason to do it. Then you get noise with the extra amplification you dont want. Go high, less trouble and you are loosing nothing.
Chris

 

[MisterDK]

Thanks for your input, guys. While I’d still like to hear more from you Grado guys, I sent Grado a message this morning to see what they have to say. I realize of course, that their opinion could be a bit biased, but I wanted to know what they’d say.

Here’s what I wrote to them:

“Hi there Grado folks! I’m considering trying a couple of your wood body phono cartridges and have questions about choosing either the high or low output version..
I’m presently using a phono stage with many gain (and loading) options with gain up to 60dB. It’s a quiet stage at all settings I have tried. I also have several SUT’s to choose from, with plenty of gain options.
I understand that these are MI cartridges so coil mass is fixed and by itself, shouldn’t change cantilever or tip mass.
I’ll be using my new cartridge on an Audiomods 6 arm, BTW.

Which version, high or low, should I choose for highest sound quality??

Thanks, Duane”

And they quickly replied:

“Hi Duane
use a low output but make sure you can low it into a 47kOhm impedance and use a minimum of 56 dB gain
we would not recommend using a SUT as we removed copped from the cartridge, we didn;t want to add it back with a SUT
any questions, let us know, happy to help”

Interesting. Still unsure of which to order but leaning toward the LO version. It’s really not all that low anyway, at 1mV output; right?

 

[cafe latte]

Thanks for your input, guys. While I’d still like to hear more from you Grado guys, I sent Grado a message this morning to see what they have to say. I realize of course, that their opinion could be a bit biased, but I wanted to know what they’d say.

Here’s what I wrote to them:

“Hi there Grado folks! I’m considering trying a couple of your wood body phono cartridges and have questions about choosing either the high or low output version..
I’m presently using a phono stage with many gain (and loading) options with gain up to 60dB. It’s a quiet stage at all settings I have tried. I also have several SUT’s to choose from, with plenty of gain options.
I understand that these are MI cartridges so coil mass is fixed and by itself, shouldn’t change cantilever or tip mass.
I’ll be using my new cartridge on an Audiomods 6 arm, BTW.

Which version, high or low, should I choose for highest sound quality??

Thanks, Duane”

And they quickly replied:

“Hi Duane
use a low output but make sure you can low it into a 47kOhm impedance and use a minimum of 56 dB gain
we would not recommend using a SUT as we removed copped from the cartridge, we didn;t want to add it back with a SUT
any questions, let us know, happy to help”

Interesting. Still unsure of which to order but leaning toward the LO version. It’s really not all that low anyway, at 1mV output; right?

What do you think you are gaining with low output?
In a MC we go low lotput for moving mass (not affected on a fix coil) and inductance. In a MC a high output MC has low enough inductance not to affect square wave, but moving mass is higher so it is worth further reducing turns to achieve low moving mass. If coils are fixed like in the Grado there is a limit to how low the output needs to get as square wave is not affected even in high output so why go lower, no point.
Chris

 

[adnick]

That’s very interesting, not sure I could use it on one of my favorite preamps without a SUT unless it was a low volume session

Thanks for sharing,
Andy

 

[MisterDK]

What do you think you are gaining with low output?
In a MC we go low lotput for moving mass (not affected on a fix coil) and inductance. In a MC a high output MC has low enough inductance not to affect square wave, but moving mass is higher so it is worth further reducing turns to achieve low moving mass. If coils are fixed like in the Grado there is a limit to how low the output needs to get as square wave is not affected even in high output so why go lower, no point.
Chris

Only thing I think would be gained with the lower output is - a much shorter signal path. I don’t know if that even matters.

Why do you think that Grado would tell me to get the LO?
Might it be because they need to move a few they have in stock.., or something else..? I do believe you, BTW, that they sound the same. Still wondering why they offer both and if the LO has anything magical to it..

 

[patient_ot]

Only thing I think would be gained with the lower output is - a much shorter signal path. I don’t know if that even matters.

Why do you think that Grado would tell me to get the LO?
Might it be because they need to move a few they have in stock.., or something else..? I do believe you, BTW, that they sound the same. Still wondering why they offer both and if the LO has anything magical to it..

It's possible there is a technical reason they make the low output cartridges' but they don't say why. Maybe they shave down weight at the iron slug? No idea. The coils aren't at issue here so that cannot be the answer as was discussed.

One thing about audiophiles - maybe they like low output because they associate that with LOMC cartridges which of course the dealers, audiophile rags, and audiophile echo chambers says are always better than a high output cartridge.

 

[MisterDK]

Well, I’ve looked up whatever I could find on the internet about whether low or high output Grados are preferred and see that some prefer LO and others say the HO is fine. I suppose the only way for me to know what I think of both - is to order one of each and decide for myself. I’ll probably do that in a week or two and let you know.. ^_^

 

[cafe latte]

Only thing I think would be gained with the lower output is - a much shorter signal path. I don’t know if that even matters.

Why do you think that Grado would tell me to get the LO?
Might it be because they need to move a few they have in stock.., or something else..? I do believe you, BTW, that they sound the same. Still wondering why they offer both and if the LO has anything magical to it..

As Pantient_ot said I think Grado have made the low output as people believe low output to be better like low output MC and it makes the Grado more hifi.
Re more turns in signal path no it does not work like this the more turns give more voltage, lower voltage needs more amplification which is more distortion and more noise. Worth it if there is a good reason for the low output like moving mass like in a MC, but not worth it is square wave is good and if the windings are not affecting moving mass, then the low output is just a pain in the butt.
Chris

 

[patient_ot]

Here's a possible clue.

Soundsmith makes what they call "medium output" cartridges with 1.1mV. That's close to Grado's 1mV "low output" cartridges.

On their website SS says that their 1.1mV cartridges are designed to be used with phono preamps that have 48-52dB fixed gain from specific brands. If you have a phono preamp like that, you're supposed to buy the medium output cartridges instead of the high output models.

https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/transformer-use-soundsmith-mifixed-coil-designs

 

[cafe latte]

Here's a possible clue.

Soundsmith makes what they call "medium output" cartridges with 1.1mV. That's close to Grado's 1mV "low output" cartridges.

On their website SS says that their 1.1mV cartridges are designed to be used with phono preamps that have 48-52dB fixed gain from specific brands. If you have a phono preamp like that, you're supposed to buy the medium output cartridges instead of the high output models.

https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/transformer-use-soundsmith-mifixed-coil-designs

I am always a bit wary of what Soundsmith says. Grado for example say the low output is resistant to loading, they cant both be right.
Chris

 

[patient_ot]

I am always a bit wary of what Soundsmith says. Grado for example say the low output is resistant to loading, they cant both be right.
Chris

In this case they are not saying that a 1.1mV output is "better". What they are saying is they made these cartridges to work with systems where people have fixed phono stage gain that won't work with a higher output cartridge.

Grado's high output cartridges have lower inductance than the SS stuff. A high output Grado usually has around 50mH of inductance. While obviously not as low as an MC cart, that's pretty low.

A cart like the Soundsmith Aida (2.12mV) has 190mH. Still lower than an average MM cart with 500mH or more but significantly higher than a Grado.

I'm not much of a fan of either brand based on the cartridges I've heard so I'm just pointing this out. Not saying anything is better than another thing.