Help! Antiskate with only a weight...no dial, and she's skating away!

[cabalaska]

I have a project rpm 10 carbon with 10cc evolution tonearm that has a weight on a string for antiskate. There are three notches on which to attach the string based upon the tracking force ragne of the cartridge. I currently have an ortofon cadenza bronze tracking at 2.5g and have the antiskate weight in the appropriate notch from which it hangs. The table is level--checked and adjusted to ensure. The tracking force is at 2.514g (the range for the cadenza is 2.2-2.7 with 2.5 suggested by ortofon. The soundstage sounds great, vocals are centered, other instruments are placed in space according to the recording...

But sometimes when I lower the stylus to the lead in groove, it will slide very quickly towards the spindle as though no antiskate were present (it doesn't skip over the record, it falls into the first song groove--and yes I have confirmed that the stylus is present). But it's a big jump vs just sliding into the groove.

So I found a blank side of an album and lowered the stylus onto the surface and it immediately slid all the way across the surface towards the spindle as though no antiskate were in play. I then disengaged the antiskate weight and experienced the same (expectedly so). But there seemed to be little or no difference between antiskate being engaged/disengaged.

So I engaged the weight again and lowered the stylus, but this time I placed a little extra force on the weight with my finger and was able to get the tonearm to stay in position--applicable antiskate force in play with this extra force. Of course, I have no way of measuring how much extra weight I applied.

The help I need is, why is the recommended antiskate parameters set by pro-ject having seemingly no effect? Is something else wrong? The tonearm wires don't appear to be impeding the arm movement. What can I do to remedy this? I wonder if I'm causing harm to the cantilever with what appears to be no antiskate, yet the music sounds great and the Analogue productions test LP record antiskate tracks "sound" equal to my ears. (But my ears aren't young anymore, so I don't think I can place full confidence in that audible test).

Any thoughts, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[cabalaska]

Failed to mention that the alignment is spot on and was set up using the WallyTractor which is really an excellent tool.

 

[Oerets]

I'm guessing here, TT is level right?

 

[cabalaska]

Yes, table is level.

 

[ripblade]

I've seen this as well and suspect it is caused by the cut and polish of the stone. Some may be shaped in such a way as to avoid the skating behaviour on touch down. This just speculation though. Some records have a ski ramp at the lead-ins which will cause the tip to slide down quicker than usual.

You can do a simple check if AS is correct by zeroing the VTF and letting the AS bump the shell against a digital VTF scale propped up on its side. For most 9" arms the AS should be ~12% of VTF.

 

[cabalaska]

ripblade,
thanks for the reply, but not sure I completely follow your suggested experiment. In addition, this is a 10" tonearm.

Not sure it's the polish of the stone because, as I mentioned, I also added a little weight to the antiskate weight and was able to prevent the tonearm from sliding across the surface. But that was added weight above the normal supplied by the manufacturer. Still befuddled.

 

[Hifiler]

To make sure I’m understanding, does the arm drift inwards during its descent when you drop the cueing? Or is dropping straight, then kind of slamming into the first track after it lands?

Sounds like the table is level. Is it level both on the platter and the top of the arm, as well as the plinth?

 

[markd51]

I would first investigate the way the Antiskate arrangement on your table "looks".
I'd examine what your manual shows, and as well see if you can find other pictures of your Table on the web to examine and see if all looks correct?

Some of these I know are merely a weight on a String that then hangs over a Wire Arm with a little hook-bend in it where the string is positioned.

I am of the understanding that with antiskate set properly, the arm on a blank side or track should drift towards the spindle, but slowly. Just to add, there is actually no such thing as perfect antiskate as such varies on different parts of a record.

Some say perfect neutral, no moving towards or away from a spindle but this can be just a little too much AS.

OK, let's say any of the 3 settings you try, and it is still a no go. It might then mean you need additional weight.
If so, one might find a way to get inventive by somehow adding additional weight to the existing weight without being noticeable. Let's say to its underside? It would take trial and error experimentation.

(I wanted to add, something as simple as a small shirt button attached to the underside of the weight with double faced tape or such might be all the additional weight you need? Or something of similar size to not be seen, yet achieve desired end results? I wouldn't do anything that you cannot then reverse engineer)

I am not sure if there are such parts options for your particular turntable? Possibly?

BTW, I just did a search and looked at this Table and Arm, very sweet Table and Arm I must say! And I also see what I thought might be a wire with hook, looks to be a straight brass pin that the line loops over. How does that work? Does the Pin have notches, or there's some other adjustment?

 

[markd51]

Even something like a small lead Split Shot for fishing, not much larger than a BB. Again, initially affixed with something not permanent.

Other ideas, the manufacturer, or the dealer may be of help.

There may be no one else on this forum that possesses your turntable, but there might likely be at the Audiogon Forum. You could register there for free, and pose the same questions there.
Hope this helps

 

[frommerstop]

Music Hall makes 0.5g weights specifically for this. Do a search, they’re $20 a pair.

 

[Mr Boochie]

I have a project rpm 10 carbon with 10cc evolution tonearm that has a weight on a string for antiskate. There are three notches on which to attach the string based upon the tracking force ragne of the cartridge. I currently have an ortofon cadenza bronze tracking at 2.5g and have the antiskate weight in the appropriate notch from which it hangs. The table is level--checked and adjusted to ensure. The tracking force is at 2.514g (the range for the cadenza is 2.2-2.7 with 2.5 suggested by ortofon. The soundstage sounds great, vocals are centered, other instruments are placed in space according to the recording...

But sometimes when I lower the stylus to the lead in groove, it will slide very quickly towards the spindle as though no antiskate were present (it doesn't skip over the record, it falls into the first song groove--and yes I have confirmed that the stylus is present). But it's a big jump vs just sliding into the groove.

So I found a blank side of an album and lowered the stylus onto the surface and it immediately slid all the way across the surface towards the spindle as though no antiskate were in play. I then disengaged the antiskate weight and experienced the same (expectedly so). But there seemed to be little or no difference between antiskate being engaged/disengaged.

So I engaged the weight again and lowered the stylus, but this time I placed a little extra force on the weight with my finger and was able to get the tonearm to stay in position--applicable antiskate force in play with this extra force. Of course, I have no way of measuring how much extra weight I applied.

The help I need is, why is the recommended antiskate parameters set by pro-ject having seemingly no effect? Is something else wrong? The tonearm wires don't appear to be impeding the arm movement. What can I do to remedy this? I wonder if I'm causing harm to the cantilever with what appears to be no antiskate, yet the music sounds great and the Analogue productions test LP record antiskate tracks "sound" equal to my ears. (But my ears aren't young anymore, so I don't think I can place full confidence in that audible test).

Any thoughts, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

How are you checking the actual tracking force weight? Sounds like it maybe tracking a lot lighter than what is on the counterweight.

I use a cheapy digital scale to be sure.

 

[cabalaska]

I would first investigate the way the Antiskate arrangement on your table "looks".
I'd examine what your manual shows, and as well see if you can find other pictures of your Table on the web to examine and see if all looks correct?

Some of these I know are merely a weight on a String that then hangs over a Wire Arm with a little hook-bend in it where the string is positioned.

I am of the understanding that with antiskate set properly, the arm on a blank side or track should drift towards the spindle, but slowly. Just to add, there is actually no such thing as perfect antiskate as such varies on different parts of a record.

Some say perfect neutral, no moving towards or away from a spindle but this can be just a little too much AS.

OK, let's say any of the 3 settings you try, and it is still a no go. It might then mean you need additional weight.
If so, one might find a way to get inventive by somehow adding additional weight to the existing weight without being noticeable. Let's say to its underside? It would take trial and error experimentation.

(I wanted to add, something as simple as a small shirt button attached to the underside of the weight with double faced tape or such might be all the additional weight you need? Or something of similar size to not be seen, yet achieve desired end results? I wouldn't do anything that you cannot then reverse engineer)

I am not sure if there are such parts options for your particular turntable? Possibly?

BTW, I just did a search and looked at this Table and Arm, very sweet Table and Arm I must say! And I also see what I thought might be a wire with hook, looks to be a straight brass pin that the line loops over. How does that work? Does the Pin have notches, or there's some other adjustment?

Thanks for the reply and thoughts. Yes, I looked at the manual closely and verified the proper method. And yes, agree that it should drift towards the spindle but it should do so at relatively slow rate. Yet the rate at which mine travels is rather quickly. I have considered adding the extra weight but that still doesn't solve the issue regarding "why" I would need to do this in the first place if there isn't something else wrong?

The straight brass pin to which the string connects is indeed notched. And each notch is specific corresponding to a range of VTF. The one I have it on is for VTF of >2.0g. My cartridge is at the recommended 2.5g. There is no other possible adjustment available.

 

[cabalaska]

How are you checking the actual tracking force weight? Sounds like it maybe tracking a lot lighter than what is on the counterweight.

I use a cheapy digital scale to be sure.

View attachment 2190763

Good thought and thanks. I use two different digital scales. One looks very similar to yours but I have found that these scales sit a little high on the platter--higher than the surface of an actual Lp. So I also have one from Riverstone Audio which has an adaptor that attaches to the scale which lowers the surface which the stylus rests upon. Thus making it much closer to the platter surface and more accurate weight.

 

[cabalaska]

Even something like a small lead Split Shot for fishing, not much larger than a BB. Again, initially affixed with something not permanent.

Other ideas, the manufacturer, or the dealer may be of help.

There may be no one else on this forum that possesses your turntable, but there might likely be at the Audiogon Forum. You could register there for free, and pose the same questions there.
Hope this helps

Thanks! Will do.

 

[cabalaska]

Music Hall makes 0.5g weights specifically for this. Do a search, they’re $20 a pair.

Thanks for the tip. I'll look into that, but I'd still like to know why this is even necessary considering that the table, arm etc are manufactured to handle a VTF of 2.5g anyway.

 

[markd51]

What Mr Boochie had suggested was something I also should've mentioned earlier, a confirmation of accurate VTF.

The Riverstone Audio Scale looks to be a quite nice unit, But could it be possible the additional ledge could influence some slight weight error? Maybe?

Looks like your table has a quite thick platter, but what I might also try, is see if you can somehow build a small platform right alongside the platter, be it something like a couple decks of cards, or something else small enough and adequate, and then try both scales at the same platter height and set the Stylus dead center on either scale.

If both scales then give considerably different readings, then you have to wonder which would be the one to trust? If both are very close and/or show identical VTF, that would likely be one small bit of assurance that you are getting accurate VTF readings.

It's basically understood that higher VTF will increase anti-skate.

Many who wish to extract the very best performance from a Cartridge will try to track as light as possible without the introduction of distortion. Fine tuning then comes down to mere tenths of a gram.

Higher VTF will enhance Bass Response, whereas a slightly lighter VTF will enhance Highs.

 

[markd51]

I see you did follow my advice about posting your questions on Audiogon, and I did find your post and the responses from other members there.

As one responded, is yes, insure no stickiness of the string on the Pin so it does slide easily. And as well, try the highest notch setting, but it appears you have also already tried that with no joy.

Another mentioned the record itself the ole ski slope possibility on a certain record's lead in. But sounds like you eliminated that possibility when you said you did try a record with a blank side, and away the arm went, skating towards the Pivot fairly fast. This shouldn't be.

And the other which is obvious, and like I mentioned, a slight lack of sufficient weight.

Tools, and set-up, you have said you've gone through just about all you could, but insure things like Azimuth Angle are correct at least with some decent test methods. Just merely looking at a level headshell is vague.

It is the stylus itself that counts, and some use a mirror on the platter, and a jeweler's loupe to inspect both the stylus and the reflection you will see in the mirror of the stylus. That by looking from the precise front of the cartridge what you want to then see is a perfect hourglass shape.

Again, insure precise VTF.

Again check level in all planes.

And yes, as I explained earlier, some form of mod to slightly increase the weight of that Antiskate Weight.
This might be the proper fix if all else passes muster and is without issue.

Tools, many of us have so much stuff, we should be in business doing set-ups! LOL. Having a few test records is always good, they can help. I have about 4, maybe 5, lost count.

 

[trinhsman]

Even something like a small lead Split Shot for fishing, not much larger than a BB. Again, initially affixed with something not permanent.

Other ideas, the manufacturer, or the dealer may be of help.

There may be no one else on this forum that possesses your turntable, but there might likely be at the Audiogon Forum. You could register there for free, and pose the same questions there.
Hope this helps

When I had my Music Hall 9.1 table tuned up AK member Gordonw found the anti skate was off. The supplied weight with the table was too much. His fix, temporarily, was split shot. He needed a certain weight and the split shot gave it to him. I found that instead of trying to find a perfect weight that looked good, the split shot was just fine for me. When I drop the stylus on a blank lp, it stays right where it lands. No movement, just a slight wobble. According to Gordon, that’s perfect. I trust him, because he has set up 50,000+ dollar turntable set ups.

 

[markd51]

When I had my Music Hall 9.1 table tuned up AK member Gordonw found the anti skate was off. The supplied weight with the table was too much. His fix, temporarily, was split shot. He needed a certain weight and the split shot gave it to him. I found that instead of trying to find a perfect weight that looked good, the split shot was just fine for me. When I drop the stylus on a blank lp, it stays right where it lands. No movement, just a slight wobble. According to Gordon, that’s perfect. I trust him, because he has set up 50,000+ dollar turntable set ups.

Being somewhere in the region, where the arm isn't aggressively jogging one way or another would be a step in the right direction no matter what IMO.

Besides listening, and playing with test records, I always also investigated needle drops. And usually not just the lead in grooves, in many areas on a record's surface.

I would commonly do this with either test records, or records I cared less about. I never ever got in a habit of doing such on my good records because I was always of the belief the more goofy needle drops one does in the middle of a record as probably some do to perhaps cue up a favorite track, there's the much higher potential for clicks and pops on a record by damage from doing this.

Thus with my good records, I don't ever lift or drop a stylus unless the lead in groove, or at end of play.

As he was also advised by an audiogon member is exactly as I have recommended, that a stylus-cartridge should only ever so slowly drift towards the spindle. I'm talking like 4-5 seconds for the cartridge to travel from the start of a grooveless record to the end.

That absolute neutral AS where the Cartridge stays motionless upon a blank record, or blank test track is excessive AS. Because of this, people then wonder why their expensive and delicate MC cartridge now has a slightly skewed Cantilever. This is the cause.

 

[MRL_Audio]

With some table/arms I have found this jumping into the groove is somewhat unavoidable. The arm descends just fine. Depending on where the stylus meets the LP the stylus may move along gracefully and other times it will jump into the track. I have learned with these table to manage the set down. In other words I manually cue the arm vs letting the dampening do the work. I have a HK T45C that no matter what cartridge I put on it, and I have used upwards of 10 differing cartridges, I have this same issue. FWIW, none of my linear tables or arms have done this.