Help! Antiskate with only a weight...no dial, and she's skating away!
- Thread starter cabalaska
- Start date
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
This is incorrect, a pivotal tonearm that possesses no antiskate feature (VPI is one) or with a Antiskate set to zero, it will naturally move to the spindle.
Case in point, the original poster finds he has insufficient Antiskate.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
That movement towards the center of the LP is called skating. Anti skating is to counter that.
After re-reading my original post it seems that I wasn't explicit enough.
1. A curved arm or straight arm with an angled head will skate on an LP with no groove.
2. Tracing a groove adds more skating if for nothing other than friction.
3. Since tracing a groove increases skating, the amount of anti-skating should be slightly more than enough needed to hold an arm stationary on an LP with no groove.
4. When tracing a groove less LP the arm should move very slowly to the outside because of the anti-skating
After re-reading my original post it seems that I wasn't explicit enough.
1. A curved arm or straight arm with an angled head will skate on an LP with no groove.
2. Tracing a groove adds more skating if for nothing other than friction.
3. Since tracing a groove increases skating, the amount of anti-skating should be slightly more than enough needed to hold an arm stationary on an LP with no groove.
4. When tracing a groove less LP the arm should move very slowly to the outside because of the anti-skating
Last edited:
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
1. For Clarity, let's state that a "Pivotal Tonearm" regardless of Arm-Headshell Type will "Skate", a Linear tracking Arm does not.
2 I understand this is not true.
3. Again, not true.
4. That depends wholly upon the amount of Anti-Skate resistance applied.
There's many exacting vinylphiles who possess multi-thousand dollar Cartridges, and very high end and expensive playback systems, I'm talking $20K Tables, and $6K-$8K Tonearms, some of them I know, and they do not use Anti-Skate on their Tonearms at all, even if there is provision for such. Or they use extremely little Antiskate.
There's expensive Tonearms today, take the VPI JMW Tonearms, there's no Antiskate Mechanisms on them stock, and if you wish to apply AS, you do so by unplugging the tiny lead wires and twist them any which way you can in an attempt.
And as I've heard many of these people whom I mention above, their claim is that often, AS, or an excess of such creates more problems than it alleviates-cures. Again, the "Skewed Cantilever Syndrome".
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
This is my take, in despite of the never ending debate of either side of the "Antiskate Fence".
Yes, I use Antiskate to a degree, always, but as this article explains, much less that what is commonly "thought to be correct" by the general masses.
https://www.sound-smith.com/do-i-need-anti-skating
Yes, I use Antiskate to a degree, always, but as this article explains, much less that what is commonly "thought to be correct" by the general masses.
https://www.sound-smith.com/do-i-need-anti-skating
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
No lesson in how high the "Fi" can go is necessary. After 50+ years with this passion I have learned a few things. I'm well aware of multi kilo buck systems and have heard quite a few. I'm also aware that some high end arms do not have anti-skating. I don't care. Skating is a given with pivoted tone arms. You can't dispute the physics.
It's a well known fact that the exact amount of anti skating needed is also dependent on groove modulation. Tracing a groove creates friction between the stylus and lp. The result of that is an increase in skating that varies with the groove modulation.
In any case, were there no groove friction please explain how a diamond gets worn down playing LP's?
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Not sure what the "I don't care" means, that's your personal take is all.
I wasn't disputing the physics of pivotal tonearms and skating, never claimed there wasn't such, only trying to correct, and clarify some of your earlier comments.
Sure, there's friction, and in that article I linked to, retippers like Peter Lederman explains it by visual examination under a microscope and noting excessive wear on one side of a stylus. Thus, the incorrect overuse of antiskate, and as well no doubt lack of such as well.
It is why in my last post I explicitly state that I am not a proponent of the use of no antiskate on a tonearm.
But neither do I believe in neutral AS as being correct on a blank track-disc, or merely dialing up #2 on an AS dial because I'm tracking at 2g VTF
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Actually we agree. Perhaps a misunderstanding arose from differences in phrasing.
Years back I used a scope to adjust anti-skating. After going through all that it turned out that my using a groove less LP to set the anti skating on my arm (at the time a Micro Seiki MA-707) to slowly drift out was extremely close to what my O'Scope showed as correct using a test record. At that point I stopped measuring.
Years back I used a scope to adjust anti-skating. After going through all that it turned out that my using a groove less LP to set the anti skating on my arm (at the time a Micro Seiki MA-707) to slowly drift out was extremely close to what my O'Scope showed as correct using a test record. At that point I stopped measuring.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
My sole goals here in this thread were to help and advise the original poster. And I hope that he has thought of what solutions he may apply, if any is actually needed?
And that is something none of us here can witness in person of what he's experiencing. There may in fact be no problem at all, or if any, a very small minor issue. As he has stated, he's experiencing no tracking issues, the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze is no cheap Cartridge.
And as well as I also commented, his Project Table is one dandy of a table, beautiful, I like it a lot! I'd be proud to call it mine.
Maybe I have a propensity of "stirring ****" because of how I am, but I am a person who's always desired to sift through what is diamonds, and what is bullshit.
Lederman's and Shroeder's opinions are but two, but I think they do have the physics, and methods correct.
The original poster has two Digital Scales on hand. Thinking further, and if was me, and a strong desire to do the job correctly, with no fishing weights, washers, or whatnot, this is what I'd likely do:
Weigh that Antiskate Weight. Find out what it weighs, and then I'd make an attempt to source a similar, but slightly heavier weight from the web, or ebay, and whatever it cost me, would then feel it was money well spent.
I wouldn't be the type of person who has now invested, $4,000, $6,000 in a vinyl front end and now cheap out over a minor cost outlay to get something right.
With that being said, I'd be searching for a weight slightly heavier. Just a very minor difference I would think would all that would be needed. He would then have the ability by the three notches on the AS Rod to further fine tune AS to a desired level.
Again, let's keep this thread to be one that helps and assists the original poster.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...57.m570.l1311&_nkw=anti+skate+weight&_sacat=0
And that is something none of us here can witness in person of what he's experiencing. There may in fact be no problem at all, or if any, a very small minor issue. As he has stated, he's experiencing no tracking issues, the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze is no cheap Cartridge.
And as well as I also commented, his Project Table is one dandy of a table, beautiful, I like it a lot! I'd be proud to call it mine.
Maybe I have a propensity of "stirring ****" because of how I am, but I am a person who's always desired to sift through what is diamonds, and what is bullshit.
Lederman's and Shroeder's opinions are but two, but I think they do have the physics, and methods correct.
The original poster has two Digital Scales on hand. Thinking further, and if was me, and a strong desire to do the job correctly, with no fishing weights, washers, or whatnot, this is what I'd likely do:
Weigh that Antiskate Weight. Find out what it weighs, and then I'd make an attempt to source a similar, but slightly heavier weight from the web, or ebay, and whatever it cost me, would then feel it was money well spent.
I wouldn't be the type of person who has now invested, $4,000, $6,000 in a vinyl front end and now cheap out over a minor cost outlay to get something right.
With that being said, I'd be searching for a weight slightly heavier. Just a very minor difference I would think would all that would be needed. He would then have the ability by the three notches on the AS Rod to further fine tune AS to a desired level.
Again, let's keep this thread to be one that helps and assists the original poster.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...57.m570.l1311&_nkw=anti+skate+weight&_sacat=0
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
All I know is that what you see on an O'Scope can't be disputed. My current arm, a modified (stub, weight, wiring, damping) Rega RB300 doesn't allow for any anti skating adjustment. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Two of the nicest features on the MA-707 arm are the completely variable antiskating (different ranges for conical and eliptical styli) and the sliding weight on the arm that allows for adjusting the effective tip mass.
Two of the nicest features on the MA-707 arm are the completely variable antiskating (different ranges for conical and eliptical styli) and the sliding weight on the arm that allows for adjusting the effective tip mass.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Micro Seiki made some drop dead gorgeous stuff as far as Tonearms! I'd imagine if much of what they made was still being made today, such would be some huge dollars.
I in fact own a mint Micro Seiki Arm on a Denon DP-2550 Table, also branded Luxman, the TA-1. It is beautiful!
Again, referring to diamonds and bullshit: Sometimes we all have to find our own path. We appreciate help and suggestions from others, and in truth, many others, including myself aren't always correct. But we try to mean well.
One example that happened to me. Mounting up a new MC Cartridge, the most expensive I ever bought to date. You sweat the details, and of course want the best performance from it.
And reading through all I could find, one user of the same cartridge stated he was getting phenomenal performance with a VTF weight of 1.7g.
Well, the cartridge was sounding stunning, until further listening, I was sure getting a lot of sibilance. Tony Bennett sounded drunk out of his gourd when he was singing "San Francisco"!
It sounded more like "Shhhhannn Fransssssico"! LOL I had another copy of the same LP, thought maybe the first was flawed-damaged. Nope, same thing. I checked everything. Phono Stage Loading,Gain, AS, you name it, blew at least an hour of worry and uncertainty.
Then decided to check manufacturer's specs. and the optimum VTF weight suggested was an even 2g. Upped the weight to 2g, problem solved, whew! LOL Tony was stone sober again! LOL
Last edited:
ripblade
Addicted Member
How did you measure skating with an o'scope?
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
I used the HiFi News LP. It has tracks for it. You watch both channels on a dual trace scope and adjust for equal visual deformity between them. You can easily see things on a scope that are hard to hear.
You can also use the Shure Era IV test record although that's not what it was designed for.
In any case, I can't adjust the antiskating on my current arm. I don't care. I'm happy with what I hear.
You can also use the Shure Era IV test record although that's not what it was designed for.
In any case, I can't adjust the antiskating on my current arm. I don't care. I'm happy with what I hear.
Last edited:
ripblade
Addicted Member
Thanks! That HFN record has been pretty much universally panned as a test as it doesn't realistically reflect music dynamics. It's best to not use the top test levels is the thinking. I don't know either way, but it makes sense.
bendoggie
Active Member
I do not use antiskate on any of my turntables (Nottingham Space deck, Denon DP80 and JVC TT-101) but recently had a problem with an Ortofon 2m Black MM cartridge. As soon as I would lower it it would shoot to the spindle. I checked everything it was all well. I looked at the stylus with a magnifier and it looked good others also looked at it and it looked good. Stumped I replaced the stylus and the problem disappeared. I can only surmise that something happened to the stylus that just was not visible to me.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Again, your personal opinion, and a myth. Because usually, the best sound will come with the lightest tracking force one can get away with, without distortion and break up.
Why? It's because with excessive tracking force you squash the living **** out of the delicate, and best highs that a good cartridge, arm and table, and everything else down the path can deliver.
Tools, test records, scopes, fozgometers, etc, methods are all aids to an end means. But still, and by far, the human ear is the final criterion.
Last edited:
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Fact of the matter, most torture test tracks will make any Cartridge distort at some point in high modulation passages.
A miracle that a cartridge won't, and if one thinks that their Salvation Army find Shure M44 Cartridge made it all the way through with flying colors is some marvel, yet a $10,000 Koetsu Cartridge didn't and it's a POS because of that fact, well, I got a bridge I'll sell you.
ripblade
Addicted Member
I agree. Tracking ability and cost share no relation.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Or sonics! Many of the world's best sounding Cartridges are sometimes not tracking kings like an old Shure V-15 III.