superdog
AK Member
Doubt if your going to get the really good ones for $30-50.I paid $200-$400 in the past two years and worth every penny.
High-End AVRs for Stereo?
- Thread starter ScottFan355
- Start date
I hear you man!
I missed out on a recent auction where near TOTL AVR's (for their era) from Marantz and Pioneer sold for $50 for the pair! The Pioneer alone sold for almost 2 grand when new, and included a built in 192kHz/24-Bit Delta Sigma DAC. I would have loved to sample them and compare to my current setup.
bigx5murf
Super Member
This is my preferred setup. I have two setups built around this concept.
Yamaha RX-z7, HT and music dual purpose.
Anthem AVM20 + PVA7 stereo music only setup
I spent $65 total for the Yamaha AND the Anthem. I spent significantly more than that just buying the cables, and collecting accessories like remotes for both.
The yamaha drives 5 original Kef Q-series speakers ( Q90, Q100C, Q10), with 2 energy es10 subs filling out the low end. The sources include an oppo dvd player, and my HTPC.
The anthem setup is very interesting, I set it up as 3 separate stereo setups. I have 2 speakers hooked up to each "zone" (main, zone2, zone3). I can switch between, and play any combination of the 3 zones, and even have different sources coming through each. For sources I have a chromecast audio hooked up by digital optical, I cast my flac collection from a PC to it, and control it through my smartphone. I also have a CD player hooked up by analog input, and last a TT (using a sony gx700es as a phono pre).
Yamaha RX-z7, HT and music dual purpose.
Anthem AVM20 + PVA7 stereo music only setup
I spent $65 total for the Yamaha AND the Anthem. I spent significantly more than that just buying the cables, and collecting accessories like remotes for both.
The yamaha drives 5 original Kef Q-series speakers ( Q90, Q100C, Q10), with 2 energy es10 subs filling out the low end. The sources include an oppo dvd player, and my HTPC.
The anthem setup is very interesting, I set it up as 3 separate stereo setups. I have 2 speakers hooked up to each "zone" (main, zone2, zone3). I can switch between, and play any combination of the 3 zones, and even have different sources coming through each. For sources I have a chromecast audio hooked up by digital optical, I cast my flac collection from a PC to it, and control it through my smartphone. I also have a CD player hooked up by analog input, and last a TT (using a sony gx700es as a phono pre).
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
AVRs, High-End or otherwise, can be just fine for stereo, IMO. Or not. A challenge for beginners is determining whether you've got a keeper, or a beer-goggle bride. Even some reputable lines from name brands had some stinker models, and ~meh~ SQ is a common characteristic, so often complained about. Now that you can get reference-quality sound from a $20 chip amp, maybe use one as a benchmark, and make sure your AVR scroe can at least keep up, in liveliness, and clarity.
jazzmans
Super Member
My Yamaha DSP A-1000 was the TOTL A/V receiver in its day, and I thought I'd use it forever. It sounded ten times better once I started using my Carver M 1.5 as the amplifier, and sounded ten times better then that when I replaced it with a pre-amp.
After that, it sat in storage for fifteen years, and one of the many computer boards failed, so it faulted to shutdown every time i tried to turn it on. Straight to recycling.
Any of my preamps, from my cheapest adcom to my apt-holman to my best Bryston run rings around that receiver, and it cost near 2 grand in 1993.
It had direct ( bypassing all tone controls and DSP)
So, In my opinion, you'd be better buying the best 2 channel receiver you can afford, then wasting your time on an A/V receiver, or better yet, go seperates.
Hell, if you only need on input, the Lepai 7498 (100 wpc @ 4 ohms) beats the hell out of that TOTL Yamaha A/V receiver.
After that, it sat in storage for fifteen years, and one of the many computer boards failed, so it faulted to shutdown every time i tried to turn it on. Straight to recycling.
Any of my preamps, from my cheapest adcom to my apt-holman to my best Bryston run rings around that receiver, and it cost near 2 grand in 1993.
It had direct ( bypassing all tone controls and DSP)
So, In my opinion, you'd be better buying the best 2 channel receiver you can afford, then wasting your time on an A/V receiver, or better yet, go seperates.
Hell, if you only need on input, the Lepai 7498 (100 wpc @ 4 ohms) beats the hell out of that TOTL Yamaha A/V receiver.
I would not count on finding good sounding AVR for $30-50. Expect to spend about 10x more for one that is worth considering. Anything that was made before mid-2000s had rather poor analog circuits. The main goal was to decode compressed DD and DTS sound from DVD and often add fancy synthetic sound field processing. But actual DAC and analog amplifiers were poorly designed and made. Only with wide adoption of BD and their uncompressed high-res sound modes manufacturers of high quality AVRs started tune them for quality sound.
Thus is you want to get AVR for music reproduction, the best option will be 3-5 years old top of the line (or next to top) model from major brand like Marantz or Integra. You should be able to get them for 30% of original price if they do not support 4K video (main reason for owners of high end HT to upgrade and sell old device).
ScottFan355
Super Member
Well this is the kind of info I find interesting. Is it just speculation on your part or based on listening or other info?
ScottFan355
Super Member
Because if there's actually a span of time after which they became significantly better the outdated models that now go for $200-$500 will be $50-$150 in a few years.
restorer-john
Addicted Member
The DSP-A1000 was an amplifier- it had no tuner (hence the "A" in the model number)
It sold for $1999 back in the day and proved to be a great seller. As time wore on however, the motorized selector proved to be a right pain in the A## for reliability.
superdog
AK Member
Mind you this is just from what I read but the DSP A-1000 was not one of Yamahas better sq offerings and easily surpassed by the early 2000 totl Yamahas according to some sources.
It is from my own experience and also confirmed by published report which include measurements. I use second from top Onkyo AVR in my family room. It does not support 3D or 4K video, and thus used only for audio processing. Sound quality is limited only by room itself, not what AVR can do. It works very well with all digital sources, including SACD. Internal amplifier can deliver 300W per channel in stereo mode, and handles less than 4 ohms speakers. It was second from top model 7 years ago. I bought it one year old and still do not feel need to upgrade.
When looking, avoid models with Audyssey XT32 - they limit sampling rate to 48K internally. Audyssey XT works natively in up to 96K. The only real limitation is less than stellar quality when applying room correction to analog sources - it is always the afterthought in AVRs. But you can use AVR in pure analog mode with turntable as a source.
Could you expand on your comments re Audyssey? How does the XT32 system apply its 48k sampling "cap" to analog sources? How different from digital sources? Thanks in advance for any info.
XT32 processing is done either at 44.1k or 48k. All higher resolution sources are downsampled first. This is not only about analog sources, but digital too. XT version (and PRO too) usually can handle up to 96k sampling rate natively. All is confirmed by looking at debug mode information supplied by AVR. Analog input processing is alm9st always done at 48k in most AVRs, very few do it at 96k. And ADC used to digitize analog input are much lower grade than DAC used in all AVRs.
savatage1973
Addicted Member
All gear (AVR or otherwise) that has "known issues" is splattered all over the internet, so yes, doing research is important--know what you're potentially walking into.
THE REMOTE!!!--this is the real "scroe killer". The bulk of the AVRs that I have dealt with are hopelessly "crippled" or downright "useless" w/o the ORIGINAL remote--and replacement remotes aren't cheap--we're talking anywhere from $65 (on the low end) to over $200 (on the higher end). And what is the first thing that gets lost, broken, eaten by the dog, stepped on by the kids?--THE REMOTE! So that $50 "scroe" on a previously $2K AVR may end up costing you more than you thought to make it work with all of its features. My other "pet peeve" are the displays--if even entirely functional, they can be impossible to read from across the room in a listening position w/o binoculars.
Not "dissing" AVRs in general, as there are some high quality ones out there that can sound/perform great for 2-channel audio, but you have to realize that the more things crammed into one case, the more compromises that have to be made due to space and cost considerations--and with very few exceptions, the emphasis on design and implementation in an AVR is NOT ANALOGUE support--if it even has a phono input, it is most likely an "afterthought", at best.
Granted, as they age, AVRs can be had for mere fractions of their original MSRP and offer a viable option for "bang for the buck" in setting up a nice little system, but they have their "limitations"--and I don't see anyone willing to spend the same amount of money to repair a 5-10 year-old AVR as they would restore a "vintage" receiver or integrated. Depends on what you want/prefer--you can throw $50 a year into a new (older) AVR, or just pony up the money for a restored vintage system or new dedicated 2-channel system--all that matters is that it sounds good to YOU!
Universal programmable remotes (i.e. Harmony) as well as secondary ones (either originally-supplied subremotes or inexpensive ones for other models in the same brand) often suffice perfectly well for day-to-day operation. For getting into the setup/configuration weeds, most TOTL receivers (and pre-pros) are equipped with menu systems requiring only a display connection, remote arrow keys, a "do it" button, and an escape key to operate. Also many newer (but still 10+ years old units) are ethernet/wifi accessible and have internal webservers to handle arcane setup chores. Denon units even have a configuration file save/restore feature. I use it to swap in my various fine-tuned configuration setups for dedicated 2-channel listening with my stereo speakers/sub as well as my home theater 7.1 setup (using completely different speakers/subs and room correction equalization curves).
On your display issue, run an overlay monitor output to your display device. You can then clearly see source, signal info, volume, and setup choices overlaid onto your video display. This is handy for when you tend to "hide" your equipment in enclosed cabinetry or even in a remote equipment room servicing the home theater/listening room.
Last edited:
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
AVR as stereo works great, especially the TOTL super receivers like my Denon AVR-4806 which had a street price of $4,000 when introduced in 2006. It even has MM phono. I did not get the remote and it is not hooked up to a screen so many features will remain hidden and not configured. For example, the on-board DAC's have to be assigned to inputs which can only be done with on screen programming. No matter, I am still living the good life for less than 3 cents on the dollar. Yup, someone else took a bath on this beauty.
I have a 4306 that I connect via the Ethernet port on the back to my router and do all the detailed setup through the browser interface. I use a Harmony remote for normal operation.AVR as stereo works great, especially the TOTL super receivers like my Denon AVR-4806 which had a street price of $4,000 when introduced in 2006. It even has MM phono. I did not get the remote and it is not hooked up to a screen so many features will remain hidden and not configured. For example, the on-board DAC's have to be assigned to inputs which can only be done with on screen programming. No matter, I am still living the good life for less than 3 cents on the dollar. Yup, someone else took a bath on this beauty.
Look in your user's guide under "Operating the AVR-5805/4806 using a browser".
savatage1973
Addicted Member
You hit the "nail on the head", so to speak. Does it sound awesome?--I'm sure it does or you wouldn't still have it. If you wanted the original remote to unlock everything, would you probably pay more for the remote than you did for the whole unit?--probably. As I stated in my previous post--not "dissing" AVRs in any way--many are quite capable, and a great value--as you said--someone "took a bath" on that unit and you got a great deal.
