You're off to a good start, and it's all about having fun after all.
High End Setup?
- Thread starter UnshippedNut
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You're off to a good start, and it's all about having fun after all.
Good can certainly be found at that budget for a complete turntable setup.
Not, however, even remotely close to “top tier high end”. Set a more realistic goal.
Buy a Dual 506 and slap a good cartridge on it. This is not a top of the line turntable but it does what it is supposed to do. You can always upgrade later, even though you said that is not what you want to do. But I would spend the most on a nice integrated amplifier (or separates) and speakers. The cartridge is also somewhere you can spend a bit to get good results... Audition lots of speakers...
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Be advised, the usual Japanese receiver is not now and never was considered "high end". There are a couple of "high end" receivers. The only real contenders are the Magnum Dynalab MD 209 @ $5500 and the McIntosh MAC7200 @ $7500.
There are quite a few integrated amplifiers that are aimed at high end buyers. However, most high end buyers are not interested in receivers or integrated amplifiers. They almost always prefer separates.
As for the prices, the two receivers I mentioned are considered bargain basement to high end aficionados. It's easy to sink half a million or more for a system composed of the very best of high end gear.
Check out Higher Fi (https://www.higherfi.com/) if you're at all curious. Currently they have a used pair of Genesis 1 speakers for $63,900. They have a large selection of high end gear for sale.
gizzyman47
Addicted Member
One mans Hi-end is another's Low-end. Get the best you can afford and be happy! Do a lot of research and try to find deals "new/used" on gear that is universally regarded as being great for the money spent.
Preowned for some things, but it’s a bit riskier and you sometimes have to be able to deal with problems.
I bought an old Thorens TD166II turntable a couple years ago for about $300 in pretty good condition. I tuned it up carefully and put an Audio-Technica AT440MLA cartridge on it, which added another $300 including all the bits I bought. That is solidly mid-grade, but not embarrassing in any company. My preamp is an Adcom GFP565 which was a Stereophile B recommendation in the early 90’s, especially because of its superb moving-magnet phono section. Another $300. And I run that into a used B&K Reference 125.2 amp, another $300. So, we are up to $1200, and have not bought speakers yet.
I would buy used for those, too, but people laugh at my choices (Advent). Old used speakers are especially risky, and often require restoration. A new pair of Elac Debut Reference speakers is $600 new and they would be a more than worthy match for that other stuff. There are many other choices.
That’s a sub-$2K system at the bottom edge of high end maybe 20-25 years ago, with speakers praised by the high-end press now. People had good ears then, too.
But I just put this together this evening:
The old Canton bookshelf speakers are really excellent and the ancient Kenwood integrated amp surprisingly good. Total investment for the amp and speakers if bought today: maybe $150. Add any decent turntable and cartridge and you’ll have a better system than most people you know. But stuff this old is really risky, and also rather limited to small listening spaces. (The new Bluetooth receiver in the pic just about doubles the price of the system.)
My office system uses a vintage Kenwood C1 preamp, an Adcom 535 amp, a cheap Technics turntable with a Grado cartridge, and inexpensive (new) Pioneer SP-BS22 speakers. That’s about $500 worth of stuff on the used market (speakers were new). Within the context of that small listening space, it sounds excellent.
I know a guy who bought a nice little high end system—VPI Scout turntable, Sutherland phono preamp, Krell integrated amp, and Alta Audio Alec speakers, after much consultation with the head guy at Krell (who is a mutual friend). He spent at least $25-30K, and it’s still a small high-end system. I know it’s stunning. But it’s a little like fine wine—you have to drink a lot of fruit juice before it’s easy to appreciate the stuff that costs over $100 a bottle, let alone the stuff that costs over $1000 a bottle. Most experienced listeners would laugh at the comparison of his system with my three systems, but most inexperienced listeners might not notice any difference, at least at lower levels and in smaller rooms, or with suboptimal room arrangements or speaker placements.
I guess the point I’m making is that you can’t start anywhere but the bottom if you want to develop your own awareness of what really sounds good, though you can always buy stuff that makes music no matter where you start. And it’s easy to spend a lot and NOT have a system that makes music.
Rick “whose first system was that Technics turntable, that Kenwood integrated amp, and those Advent speakers, all bought in 1977, when it was inexpensive but musical—as it still is” Denney
I bought an old Thorens TD166II turntable a couple years ago for about $300 in pretty good condition. I tuned it up carefully and put an Audio-Technica AT440MLA cartridge on it, which added another $300 including all the bits I bought. That is solidly mid-grade, but not embarrassing in any company. My preamp is an Adcom GFP565 which was a Stereophile B recommendation in the early 90’s, especially because of its superb moving-magnet phono section. Another $300. And I run that into a used B&K Reference 125.2 amp, another $300. So, we are up to $1200, and have not bought speakers yet.
I would buy used for those, too, but people laugh at my choices (Advent). Old used speakers are especially risky, and often require restoration. A new pair of Elac Debut Reference speakers is $600 new and they would be a more than worthy match for that other stuff. There are many other choices.
That’s a sub-$2K system at the bottom edge of high end maybe 20-25 years ago, with speakers praised by the high-end press now. People had good ears then, too.
But I just put this together this evening:
The old Canton bookshelf speakers are really excellent and the ancient Kenwood integrated amp surprisingly good. Total investment for the amp and speakers if bought today: maybe $150. Add any decent turntable and cartridge and you’ll have a better system than most people you know. But stuff this old is really risky, and also rather limited to small listening spaces. (The new Bluetooth receiver in the pic just about doubles the price of the system.)
My office system uses a vintage Kenwood C1 preamp, an Adcom 535 amp, a cheap Technics turntable with a Grado cartridge, and inexpensive (new) Pioneer SP-BS22 speakers. That’s about $500 worth of stuff on the used market (speakers were new). Within the context of that small listening space, it sounds excellent.
I know a guy who bought a nice little high end system—VPI Scout turntable, Sutherland phono preamp, Krell integrated amp, and Alta Audio Alec speakers, after much consultation with the head guy at Krell (who is a mutual friend). He spent at least $25-30K, and it’s still a small high-end system. I know it’s stunning. But it’s a little like fine wine—you have to drink a lot of fruit juice before it’s easy to appreciate the stuff that costs over $100 a bottle, let alone the stuff that costs over $1000 a bottle. Most experienced listeners would laugh at the comparison of his system with my three systems, but most inexperienced listeners might not notice any difference, at least at lower levels and in smaller rooms, or with suboptimal room arrangements or speaker placements.
I guess the point I’m making is that you can’t start anywhere but the bottom if you want to develop your own awareness of what really sounds good, though you can always buy stuff that makes music no matter where you start. And it’s easy to spend a lot and NOT have a system that makes music.
Rick “whose first system was that Technics turntable, that Kenwood integrated amp, and those Advent speakers, all bought in 1977, when it was inexpensive but musical—as it still is” Denney
RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
I think that folks are getting a bit hung up on the idea of "high end." True, that among the kind of folks who frequent this forum high end means some very expensive gear that few are likely to own. To the ordinary person though a 2k investment in gear is something that's very high end indeed, particularly considering that most folks are using a Bluetooth speaker and a phone that plays mp3s as their only audio system. I have what I consider to be a very nice audio system, with components (most of them anyway) that I'm very happy with, all of which allows me to get much deeper into the recordings that I have than anything that I've owned previously... though all of it by the standards of this forum would be considered "mid-fi." There might be an exception made for my Jamo speakers, which though I bought them nearly new for just $350, retailed for $1800. Those speakers might qualify as "entry level high end," but even if they don't I'm happy with them and mostly happy with my whole system as it does a good job off bringing out the subtle details of the music, and that's all I care about.
I'd suggest as some others have mentioned, figuring out (hopefully there's a place to listen to some things) what kinds of speakers you like. Once you've done that you can hopefully track down a used set for a good deal, if not of those exact ones, of similar and then I'd build the rest of the system around those. If you buy used as I've done you can get a lot for your money and with $1500 - $2000 you can likely get something that you'll be really happy with. Think about what you like though; are you after hearing the most detail in your records or having less well recorded albums sound smoother? Do you need fat bass, will you be cranking the thing loud, are you after the very best sound or are willing to compromise a bit for conveniences like remote controls, etc?
I'd suggest as some others have mentioned, figuring out (hopefully there's a place to listen to some things) what kinds of speakers you like. Once you've done that you can hopefully track down a used set for a good deal, if not of those exact ones, of similar and then I'd build the rest of the system around those. If you buy used as I've done you can get a lot for your money and with $1500 - $2000 you can likely get something that you'll be really happy with. Think about what you like though; are you after hearing the most detail in your records or having less well recorded albums sound smoother? Do you need fat bass, will you be cranking the thing loud, are you after the very best sound or are willing to compromise a bit for conveniences like remote controls, etc?
RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
Yeah, I'm not arguing that it isn't. The total cost of my system, including a second remote set of speakers is less than 2k, though if I were to have spent the full retail cost of the newer items and the current value off my old Marantz receiver, the total cost would be closer to 2.5 or more times that. I'm still comfortable calling it "mid-fi" though rather than "hi-end" because it's what I can afford and something that sounds good to me. Whatever you call it though, really good sound doesn't have to cost a fortune and even at say the 1K or so mark for speakers (which could be half or less of that if you buy used) there are many choices and high quality sound to be had...
No one suggested the OP would be unhappy with a $1500-2000 system, or that such a system cannot provide pretty good performance. But this started out as a quest for "high-end" (skipping all the in-between steps...see initial post). If $2000 is high-end, what is a $20-30K system? Just conspicuous consumption?
Most folks would agree that improvement gained for each additional dollar spent is greatest at the entry point of high-fidelity gear, and steadily declines thereafter (sometimes referred to as diminishing returns on investment), but this doesn't mean that additional investment fails to bring incremental improvement.
Most folks would agree that improvement gained for each additional dollar spent is greatest at the entry point of high-fidelity gear, and steadily declines thereafter (sometimes referred to as diminishing returns on investment), but this doesn't mean that additional investment fails to bring incremental improvement.
Yes, the high end is just that, perceptions really aren't part of the equation.
When speaking of the high end it's not about SQ per say, but it's all about the $$$$ and cache'.
My Mustang will outperform many high end luxury cars, but it's definitely not a high end automobile.
By definition alone, if all peices of equipment were stacked with cheapest at the bottom and most expensive at the top, then there's your "high end".
All said, we've elucidated and illuminated the OP, he's made the left turn at Albuquerque and on the right path now.
When speaking of the high end it's not about SQ per say, but it's all about the $$$$ and cache'.
My Mustang will outperform many high end luxury cars, but it's definitely not a high end automobile.
By definition alone, if all peices of equipment were stacked with cheapest at the bottom and most expensive at the top, then there's your "high end".
All said, we've elucidated and illuminated the OP, he's made the left turn at Albuquerque and on the right path now.
RunOutGroove
Addicted Member
Silly arguments really... To the OP, who is probably more like the rest of the world that aren't members of this forum, dropping 2K or so on a stereo IS almost certainly what they would consider to be "high end." Folks who are deeper into audio have a much different definition for that idea, but the it seems that it isn't the same idea as the one that the OP has, so why not just meet him halfway on that and think about what the budget is, not what was meant by the words "high end?"
I likely will never own gear that folks on this forum would be likely to consider high end, and yet I'm still very much into audio. Believe it or not, the fact that I have a deep interest in audio but don't have a big enough budget for this "high end" gear does not cause me to loose any sleep at night...
I likely will never own gear that folks on this forum would be likely to consider high end, and yet I'm still very much into audio. Believe it or not, the fact that I have a deep interest in audio but don't have a big enough budget for this "high end" gear does not cause me to loose any sleep at night...
But see, it really doesn't matter if they consider it high end, it isn't.
Just take cartridges for example, the prices start around $30 and top out at $16,000, my $400 cartridges are a looooooong way from the high end. This has nothing to do with perception, it is what it is.
That doesn't mean they don't perform outstandingly, that's where the term bang for the buck comes from.
This is not to dis anyone's gear, most of us don't play in those leagues and there's nothing wrong with that.
Did you ever tell yourself, even if I had the money I wouldn't? That's called diminishing returns, we want to see a perceived value in our purchase.
The OP gets it, we can beliguer this for days but it still won't change the facts, the high end is just that, at the high end of the price scale.
Just take cartridges for example, the prices start around $30 and top out at $16,000, my $400 cartridges are a looooooong way from the high end. This has nothing to do with perception, it is what it is.
That doesn't mean they don't perform outstandingly, that's where the term bang for the buck comes from.
This is not to dis anyone's gear, most of us don't play in those leagues and there's nothing wrong with that.
Did you ever tell yourself, even if I had the money I wouldn't? That's called diminishing returns, we want to see a perceived value in our purchase.
The OP gets it, we can beliguer this for days but it still won't change the facts, the high end is just that, at the high end of the price scale.
Back in 1991 I had the opportunity to hear something really special, WOW was all I could muster at the time. I was plunking down $6500 on a complete system and worried I was now going to be let down with my speaker purchase.
You see, I originally wanted something different, but he made me a deal I couldn't refuse on something else I hadn't auditioned, he didn't carry the line of speaker I was looking for.
He assured me I wouldn't be let down, in fact quite the opposite.
But once I looked into the actual value of the speakers he was offering, and the reviews I had to have them. You see, I had magazines that had reviewed them the year before, so I could check the price.
Retail $3300, offer $1800, when I returned to accept the offer he had realized it was significantly below cost and we made a deal on the other gear, 5% off rather than the typical 10% for purchasing a complete setup. I had no problem with that lol.
Here are the speakers I heard that that day, and again, just WOW.
B&W 800 Matrix
You see, I originally wanted something different, but he made me a deal I couldn't refuse on something else I hadn't auditioned, he didn't carry the line of speaker I was looking for.
He assured me I wouldn't be let down, in fact quite the opposite.
But once I looked into the actual value of the speakers he was offering, and the reviews I had to have them. You see, I had magazines that had reviewed them the year before, so I could check the price.
Retail $3300, offer $1800, when I returned to accept the offer he had realized it was significantly below cost and we made a deal on the other gear, 5% off rather than the typical 10% for purchasing a complete setup. I had no problem with that lol.
Here are the speakers I heard that that day, and again, just WOW.
B&W 800 Matrix
Massive. Those things would take up half of the living room in my apartment. LOL.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
You don't want an integrated unit either. You definitely want a separate pre-amp and amp or amps! If you are on the West Coast go to Scott Walker Sound. The east coast Audio Classics. Central US, I like Bjorns in Texas, and I guess Listen Up in the Rockies. Don't know about the mid West and Great Lakes region or Georgia Florida.