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High Frequency "Glare" or "Grainy" Texture - Help me Isolate it

I thought I would post an update in case anyone is interested in progress made. I decided to keep the XPA-2and work on fixing the issues with the grainy texture in the sound. I upgraded all the interconnections to high quality XLR cables for all the balanced sources. I also changed the speaker cable to shorter length 12 gauge 99.995% OFC copper with bare cable connections. Most of the problem is gone now. I can still hear some issues with the upper midrange which could be some problems with the high frequency drivers in the speakers. Sounds as good as the Crown amp now. If fact, the bass seems to have more oomph. Of course that could just be me.
 
i don't think cables were your issue really but, if it helped then that's great. it's also not wrong deciding to keep something. it can always be used for something else. i sometimes buy stuff out of curiosity and even though it might not make too much difference,always thought it was nice to keep around for another project or something. who knows.
 
Decibel_116 said:
I thought I would post an update in case anyone is interested in progress made. I decided to keep the XPA-2and work on fixing the issues with the grainy texture in the sound. I upgraded all the interconnections to high quality XLR cables for all the balanced sources. I also changed the speaker cable to shorter length 12 gauge 99.995% OFC copper with bare cable connections. Most of the problem is gone now. I can still hear some issues with the upper midrange which could be some problems with the high frequency drivers in the speakers. Sounds as good as the Crown amp now. If fact, the bass seems to have more oomph. Of course that could just be me.
Click to expand...

I am actually not that surprised replacing the IC's and cables influenced an audible change in the system - but I also wonder if a longer burn in time now you have had the amp a while has given the sound a fuller and more robust presence - at least that has been my experience. I can't recall what your source/sources are?

Edit: Have you hooked back up the crown just to make another comparison? Just curious!

Rob :)
 
Decibel_116 said:
I thought I would post an update in case anyone is interested in progress made. I decided to keep the XPA-2and work on fixing the issues with the grainy texture in the sound. I upgraded all the interconnections to high quality XLR cables for all the balanced sources. I also changed the speaker cable to shorter length 12 gauge 99.995% OFC copper with bare cable connections. Most of the problem is gone now. I can still hear some issues with the upper midrange which could be some problems with the high frequency drivers in the speakers. Sounds as good as the Crown amp now. If fact, the bass seems to have more oomph. Of course that could just be me.
Click to expand...
All copper cables are 99.99% pure copper. I fail to hear the other four 9s that make up "six 9s "purity"
 
Perhaps changing cables had the valuable side-effect of removing contact oxidation. Plugging and then replugging can often be helpful.
 
Lesterbest said:
Put a tissue over the tweeter if all else doesn't solve your issue. Inelegant but effective.
Click to expand...

Now, why didn't I think of that? For those who believe there is no audible difference between speaker cables, stop reading this post and move along. I purchased some different cables just to experiment with to see if I could here any differences between them. So far, I have replaced the 14 AWG stranded Amazon Basics wire with some 12 AWG SoundQuest speaker wire I had left over from an old car stereo installation (from many years ago). Just so there isn't any misunderstandings about connections, I always make sure any bare wire connections are new sections of wire and very clean. The connections of interconnecting cables and speaker wire must be kept clean to maintain a good connection. As I state previously, the 12 AWG stranded wire made the most difference - and it was significant. This is one piece of gear I will most likely never give up. In all honesty, I was concerned that this Emotiva product was not up to the same high quality standard the other Emotiva products I have owned are and therefore not of sufficient quality to drive my Thiel CS3.5 speakers (or any other high quality speakers for that matter). This could not be further from the truth as the amplifier sounds just phenomenal now. I have switched the Crown amplifier back in to make sure my conclusions are supported (the Crown amplifiers continue to impress me).

So, on to the wire test. I had ordered some 14 AWG solid core wire from Amazon last week and it finally came in. This is just normal solid core wire, nothing special. It was actually sold under the "lawn and garden" category as dog electric fence cable. The only problem is there is no way to differentiate one conductor from another as it is twisted pair with both wires having a black insulation. Had to get out the ohmmeter for these. BLUF - no difference that I can hear between these and the 12 AWG stranded SoundQuest wire (both are sized at 6 feet). I also ordered some Canare 4S11 pre-made cables (6 ft). However, these will not fit because of the construction of the Thiel speakers. The binding posts are on the bottom of the cabinets and the Canare locking banana plugs are too long to allow the speaker to sit flat - Bummer. I decided to try them on my Dynaudio tower speakers. If I lost you by now, this is where you should perk up. I expected to NOT hear any difference between these and the Amazon Basic 14 AWG wires I had been using. This is a secondary system consisting of an Emotiva XDA-2 DAC with a Yamaha CDX-550 CD player driving it played through an Emotiva UPA-2 amplifier. I had been experiencing quite a bit of dirty sounding mid range which I had attributed to the D52AF dome midrange drivers. I can throw that theory out the window now as this was resolved apparently by the new speaker cables. This makes me very happy indeed! Here I thought these Dynaudio speakers were destined for a sale at some point, but not anymore. They actually sound great with some Steely Dan "The Royal Scam" playing. I forgot how much I liked that song.

So what did I learn from all this? Well first off, I probably shouldn't use 14 AWG basic stranded speaker wire on high powered and high resolving systems. There is nothing wrong with my XPA-2 (whew!). I was not looking forward to sending that beast back (besides, I like the cheesy LED power meters). I think I have a tweeter with some issues on the right side (a subject for another day/thread).

Thanks for all the help as always!
David
 
^^^^^^^ I love reading personal experimentation posts ^^^^^^^^

Lesson learn't - in the audio world draw your own conclusions.

Rob :)
 
Brindabella said:
^^^^^^^ I love reading personal experimentation posts ^^^^^^^^

Lesson learn't - in the audio world draw your own conclusions.

Rob :)
Click to expand...

Rob,

I really appreciate all the support in this thread. Since I don't have all the test equipment available to me that I had in my previous job, experimenting with different configurations is all I can do (without investing in specialized equipment). I have no idea what is causing the differences in SQ between the different cables. For the short cable runs I am dealing with, I would think there would not be any difference in SQ between any of these wires. Next, I need an oscilloscope to take some measurements. A distortion analyzer would be nice too. I would also like to be able to measure the noise coming in from the AC line. I noticed an increase in the upper midrange distortion (very audible) after about 6PM last night. Maybe there is something to all this talk about line noise causing distortion. If I can measure it, I can filter it out. Maybe all that filter theory they taught me in college will pay off! Looks like it is time to review Fourier Transforms (again).

David
 
Decibel_116 said:
Now, why didn't I think of that? For those who believe there is no audible difference between speaker cables, stop reading this post and move along. I purchased some different cables just to experiment with to see if I could here any differences between them. So far, I have replaced the 14 AWG stranded Amazon Basics wire with some 12 AWG SoundQuest speaker wire I had left over from an old car stereo installation (from many years ago). Just so there isn't any misunderstandings about connections, I always make sure any bare wire connections are new sections of wire and very clean. The connections of interconnecting cables and speaker wire must be kept clean to maintain a good connection. As I state previously, the 12 AWG stranded wire made the most difference - and it was significant. This is one piece of gear I will most likely never give up. In all honesty, I was concerned that this Emotiva product was not up to the same high quality standard the other Emotiva products I have owned are and therefore not of sufficient quality to drive my Thiel CS3.5 speakers (or any other high quality speakers for that matter). This could not be further from the truth as the amplifier sounds just phenomenal now. I have switched the Crown amplifier back in to make sure my conclusions are supported (the Crown amplifiers continue to impress me).

So, on to the wire test. I had ordered some 14 AWG solid core wire from Amazon last week and it finally came in. This is just normal solid core wire, nothing special. It was actually sold under the "lawn and garden" category as dog electric fence cable. The only problem is there is no way to differentiate one conductor from another as it is twisted pair with both wires having a black insulation. Had to get out the ohmmeter for these. BLUF - no difference that I can hear between these and the 12 AWG stranded SoundQuest wire (both are sized at 6 feet). I also ordered some Canare 4S11 pre-made cables (6 ft). However, these will not fit because of the construction of the Thiel speakers. The binding posts are on the bottom of the cabinets and the Canare locking banana plugs are too long to allow the speaker to sit flat - Bummer. I decided to try them on my Dynaudio tower speakers. If I lost you by now, this is where you should perk up. I expected to NOT hear any difference between these and the Amazon Basic 14 AWG wires I had been using. This is a secondary system consisting of an Emotiva XDA-2 DAC with a Yamaha CDX-550 CD player driving it played through an Emotiva UPA-2 amplifier. I had been experiencing quite a bit of dirty sounding mid range which I had attributed to the D52AF dome midrange drivers. I can throw that theory out the window now as this was resolved apparently by the new speaker cables. This makes me very happy indeed! Here I thought these Dynaudio speakers were destined for a sale at some point, but not anymore. They actually sound great with some Steely Dan "The Royal Scam" playing. I forgot how much I liked that song.

So what did I learn from all this? Well first off, I probably shouldn't use 14 AWG basic stranded speaker wire on high powered and high resolving systems. There is nothing wrong with my XPA-2 (whew!). I was not looking forward to sending that beast back (besides, I like the cheesy LED power meters). I think I have a tweeter with some issues on the right side (a subject for another day/thread).

Thanks for all the help as always!
David
Click to expand...

All the Amazon Basic speaker cable I noticed were CCA (copper-clad aluminum). While I'm not a great speaker-cable experimenter, I do feel that this use of dissimilar metals is a bad idea, and was disappointed Amazon went that route.
 
yup, most store or ''audio'' grade speaker wire can be cca... they also don't fit the criteria for awg standards, most of them. that 14awg is probably like 15-16awg in most cases if you measure the awg yourself. when comes to hardware use like extension cables, are usually built for higher higher standards. cost me bit over 50 bucks for high quality 25ft 14awg extension cable i bought for my amps to be ran off of a 25a circuits. some cables if is more pure in copper some will corrode over time as well and oxidize is another reason for store or audio clear brands use cca more often besides it being cheaper.

i really don't find anything over 14awg standard,even if running 25ft worth of it will add too much extra resistance if any and, will be more than optimal for any speaker. i only use heavier gauge for sub use cause that's where all the power is being drawn from. need to step up a gauge or so for very high current loads to be on safe side as some subs i have will pull over 3kw of power under full load or very heavy infrasonic low frequency bursts/dynamics with certain movies and games. i do listen to some music with below 20hz information but, only for testing(like bass i love you from basstronics has information well below 15hz and also one few i actually like from him) and will pull a lot from the wall.... but, anyhoo, i never bother too much or cared for anything over standard 14awg wire. also some home amps won't even except heavier wire than standard 14awg unless use banana plugs cause actual 12awg is pretty darn thick. or unless they consume more then 2kw of power from the wall which is on rare side and are usually very inefficient....

also the tolite paper thing can help in attenuating a tad bit down but, will in other run cause a bit of comb filtering issues. better make use of open cell foam of some sort or eq a bit. people use to do that on the ns10/m's tweeters and realized it just made issues worst due to added comb filtering from use of tolite paper....but, no matter what no mod or eq will eliminate ''grain'' type of response. it will seem like it at first cause you attenuated the specific frequency ranges down but, that's all. if it's a problem with the speaker, then it will be there no matter what.

thiel uses first order crossover filters which some believe is closet you'll get to no crossover but, are harder on drivers and amps due to very low slopes and of course some actual first orders can cause a lot of electrical magnetic interference sent back into the amp causing phase shifts making the load harder than what it is if not properly filtered.you should watch the emotiva after long heavy run cause the thiels are known to be heavy loads and emotiva is known not do so well under very stressed heavy reactive loads..

i also don't know your dac too much but, some can make things grainy. reason i stick with my echo audiofire 2 is cause of this. some of newer interfaces and dacs that uses cs(circuss logic) or burr-brown dacs can have more of a ''digital'' type of graininess to it. i like the ak/akm chip used in my echo( schitt yggy and lot of more expensive audio interfaces went back to using ak/akm chips) because it just converts well with no grain or glare added to it. it is one piece i never felt the need to upgrade over the past several years of owning it.....but, just adding that in there since it's been my experience..but i don't consider myself an expert at all really. i just use to be audio guy who like music and use to review a lot of very expensive vintage and new headphones in the past and played with lot of stuff.


but, if your findings says otherwise i can't argue with that. just putting my extra bit of opinion out there. that's all.
 
Rex, you lost me on the toilet paper and cell foam thingy. Did I miss something? I'm interested, but I am not familiar with those terms. Can you help a brother out?

Thanks,
David
 
yea. lot of toilet are made with some synthetic cotton stuff besides other things. it's pattern and layers of some which causes the issues sometimes too cause it'll mess with how the dome disperses which can cause bit issues but, probably most people won't notice it sometimes. comb filtering as very basic is basically a delay of the fundamental/harmonics on top of the actual input signal affecting the phase and impulse response of the speaker besides adding an extra delay in the frequency range.

open cell is very porous foam and while it has some absorption properties it was made to allow air to pass through freely. open cell foam can be found at most art&craft supplier like Micheal's or even hardware sections of department stores like wlamart will have for for air condition use but, of course very limited of thickness size depending what want to do with it but, usually thin/thick enough to dampen the tweeter while allowing the highs to pass freely. can experiment with it as much too since most open cell is very cheap. the foam at wlamart is like 50c a packet usually but, might went up bit due to air conditioning season which is still no biggie.
 
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