Hoping I Didnt Damage my RT-707

[GaryJ73167]

I just recently picked up a FULLY serviced RT-707 in MINT condition from eBay. All mechanisms were lubed, all capacitors were replaced, heads were polished to a shine, demagnetized and aligned, counter belt replaced,..etc...etc...

Anyway, I have been using the deck for a solid week. I am talking hours and hours every day. It has been FLAWLESS. So, being I am planning on using this so much, I ordered a few blank tapes off eBay. Old stock, but, sealed and never used.

Yesterday, one of the tapes was delivered to my house. It was a 7" 1800ft. Radio Shack tape. Well, the minute I put this tape on the deck, it was as if it was sticky. It didn't feel sticky to the touch, but, as it was running through the deck, you can see the mechanism bouncing a bit as if it was having a hard time running through the deck. At this point, I wanted this tape OFF my deck. So, I hit FFWD. The tape was having such a hard time unraveling, that, at one point, the reels slowed down to almost a halt during the FFWD. Finally, after the deck struggled, it was done FFWD'ng. But. the tape was so stuck on the reel and it never unraveled. I had to take the tape reel off and use force and pull it off the reel. As if it was glued to the reel. Through all of this, the tape does not FEEL sticky to the touch. It is just acting that way (if that makes any sense)

So, once that tape was off the deck, (after a cleaning) I went back to trying all of my other tapes. NONE of them act like this. NONE. They all (Scotch, Ampex, TDK, Maxell...etc...etc.) play smooth as can be.

So, What i did was give the heads, capstan,..etc..etc..anything in the tape path...a full cleaning with 91% alcohol and q-tips. A lot of crud came off as the tape itself looked like it was flaking as it was trying to work its way through.

So, I am a worry wart. First: Did playing this tape ruin anything in my deck? Secondly: because this tape was dragging so bad, I am worried about the motors in my machine. Do you think this is a sign of one of the motors being bad? Or, was it just the result of playing a bad tape? I am thinking that if the motor was bad, it wouldn't play all of my other tapes with no issue at all.

I guess I am just looking for some reassurance that things are ok....haha.... I'm like a child with this stuff.

 

[Decatur Greg]

I think this is all related to the tape, not so much with the deck. I think the thorough cleaning you gave it should be good. Since the slowness of the motor was limited to just this tape I doubt that the motor is bad. Like you pointed out it only happens with this reel, not the others. One thing I have found out in my reading about this deck is that when the motor starts to go bad it manifests itself by slowness at the end of reel. If you're not experiencing this with all tapes, I wouldn't worry.

Since you have such a great deck that's been fully serviced my first recommendation would be to stop buying NOS tapes. I know lots of people swear by them and I do have several reels of Maxell that I have bought and they seem to perform great. I recommend you buy new tape from www.splicit.com I've used them for all my accessories like leader tape, splicing block & tape, etc. They have great customer service and stock NEW reel to reel tape at decent prices. Get a reel of their 911 or LPR35 and you'll be good to go.

If you do want to buy more NOS tapes, you should probably look over this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky-shed_syndrome for tapes that suffer from SSS and you should avoid buying them.

also... welcome to AK! I think you'll like it here. I recently bought a RT-707 myself and I'm waiting to get it back from my tech who's going over it.

 

[GaryJ73167]

I think this is all related to the tape, not so much with the deck. I think the thorough cleaning you gave it should be good. Since the slowness of the motor was limited to just this tape I doubt that the motor is bad. Like you pointed out it only happens with this reel, not the others. One thing I have found out in my reading about this deck is that when the motor starts to go bad it manifests itself by slowness at the end of reel. If you're not experiencing this with all tapes, I wouldn't worry.

Since you have such a great deck that's been fully serviced my first recommendation would be to stop buying NOS tapes. I know lots of people swear by them and I do have several reels of Maxell that I have bought and they seem to perform great. I recommend you buy new tape from www.splicit.com I've used them for all my accessories like leader tape, splicing block & tape, etc. They have great customer service and stock NEW reel to reel tape at decent prices. Get a reel of their 911 or LPR35 and you'll be good to go.

If you do want to buy more NOS tapes, you should probably look over this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky-shed_syndrome for tapes that suffer from SSS and you should avoid buying them.

also... welcome to AK! I think you'll like it here. I recently bought a RT-707 myself and I'm waiting to get it back from my tech who's going over it.

Thank you for your detailed reply. I am so new to this. What is an NOS tape?

Funny you mention the slowing of the reels towards the end of tapes. Last deck I had suffered from that. I wound up sending it back. Wasn't sure what the issue was. I am glad I returned it though.

 

[empirelvr]

NOS = New Old Stock

 

[GaryJ73167]

NOS = New Old Stock

ahhhh.....ok..... thanks

 

[empirelvr]

What happened is you played a tape that has Sticky Shed Syndrome (SSS). You did not ruin your deck. Cleaning the machine afterwards as you did was the right way to do it by the way so kudos!

SSS afflicts tapes made from around 1970 to the late 1990's. SSS tapes are almost all "backcoated" (although all backcoated tapes do not necessarily have SSS.) Backcoating is the deeply flat black colored coating on the non-oxide part of the tape. (The oxide will be a shiny medium to dark brown.)

A still not yet completely understood breakdown in the tape causes the sticking and shedding you describe. A temporary solution is to "bake" the tape in an electric oven at around 160 to 180 degrees (F) for over a 24 hour period followed by a cooling period of similar length. Perversely, cheaper (non-backcoated) formulations did not suffer from this. (You can tell them apart by the cheaper tape having an extremely shiny backing that matches the oxide color instead of a flat, dark black one.) Only the premium tapes in a company's line become afflicted with SSS. This is no place to get into how almost our entire tape recorded heritage post-1970 suffers from this "syndrome."

The above advice about new tapes is good, but still be careful. I've had new tapes also show SSS after a while. Some backcoated tapes don't have SSS, such as Scotch 206. No one knows why some models don't suffer and some do from SSS, though people are looking into it.

Also, stay away from all tapes branded as Radio Shack, Concertape, and Shamrock. They were rejected batches of tape, mostly from Ampex, some not even manufactured as audio tape, slit to 1/4 size and sold for pennies on the dollar to people like Radio Shack, who packaged them as their own tape. (Almost always as their cheapest tapes) They will be nothing but problems for you.

 

[GaryJ73167]

What happened is you played a tape that has Sticky Shed Syndrome (SSS). You did not ruin your deck. Cleaning the machine afterwards as you did was the right way to do it by the way so kudos!

SSS afflicts tapes made from around 1970 to the late 1990's. SSS tapes are almost all "backcoated" (although all backcoated tapes do not necessarily have SSS.) Backcoating is the deeply flat black colored coating on the non-oxide part of the tape. (The oxide will be a shiny medium to dark brown.)

A still not yet completely understood breakdown in the tape causes the sticking and shedding you describe. A temporary solution is to "bake" the tape in an electric oven at around 160 to 180 degrees (F) for over a 24 hour period followed by a cooling period of similar length. Perversely, cheaper (non-backcoated) formulations did not suffer from this. (You can tell them apart by the cheaper tape having an extremely shiny backing that matches the oxide color instead of a flat, dark black one.) Only the premium tapes in a company's line become afflicted with SSS. This is no place to get into how almost our entire tape recorded heritage post-1970 suffers from this "syndrome."

The above advice about new tapes is good, but still be careful. I've had new tapes also show SSS after a while. Some backcoated tapes don't have SSS, such as Scotch 206. No one knows why some models don't suffer and some do from SSS, though people are looking into it.

Also, stay away from all tapes branded as Radio Shack, Concertape, and Shamrock. They were rejected batches of tape, mostly from Ampex, some not even manufactured as audio tape, slit to 1/4 size and sold for pennies on the dollar to people like Radio Shack, who packaged them as their own tape. (Almost always as their cheapest tapes) They will be nothing but problems for you.

Thank you so much. As the saying goes, "Live and Learn". No more NOS tapes and ESPECIALLY not Radio Shack tapes.

 

[empirelvr]

Thank you so much. As the saying goes, "Live and Learn". No more NOS tapes and ESPECIALLY not Radio Shack tapes.

Don't dismiss all NOS tapes out of hand. Maxell LN and UD are good quality tapes that aren't backcoated so you shouldn't turn them down if good offers for them come your way. The same goes for TDK LX series. BASF LP-35 is also a good NOS bet. It's easy to know if a tape is backcoated too, because it was a big selling point for them. So the boxes will say something like "back treated" or similar.

Just stay away from backcoated tapes, off-brand tapes (Shamrock, etc.) and acetate backed tapes.

 

[GaryJ73167]

Don't dismiss all NOS tapes out of hand. Maxell LN and UD are good quality tapes that aren't backcoated so you shouldn't turn them down if good offers for them come your way. The same goes for TDK LX series. BASF LP-35 is also a good NOS bet. It's easy to know if a tape is backcoated too, because it was a big selling point for them. So the boxes will say something like "back treated" or similar.

Just stay away from backcoated tapes, off-brand tapes (Shamrock, etc.) and acetate backed tapes.

I have heard some good things about "Scotch Brand Tapes". However, my 1st experience with an 1800ft. tape was a loud HISS through it and the high end was almost non existent. Very noisy. I needed to turn the input level up when making tapes because of how noisy it is. Are all Scotch brand tapes this way? Or did I get a dud?

 

[empirelvr]

I have heard some good things about "Scotch Brand Tapes". However, my 1st experience with an 1800ft. tape was a loud HISS through it and the high end was almost non existent. Very noisy. I needed to turn the input level up when making tapes because of how noisy it is. Are all Scotch brand tapes this way? Or did I get a dud?

Sounds like a dud. Does the box give a three digit formulation number? That might help diagnose what the problem with that reel may be. Then, of course, unless it was still sealed when you got it it's always possible that the tape inside the box wasn't really a Scotch one.

Scotch-3M were the first makers of recording tape in America! All magnetic recording media in this country look to 3M as ground zero because they were the pioneers of it. The only problem with Scotch is they had so many models of tape through the years. An almost bewildering choice of tape for just about every application you can imagine which will make a newbie's head like yours swim trying to sort it out. So my advice is to stick with the brands you've been advised about now and learn about Scotch's tapes as you go along to help you in the future.

 

[GaryJ73167]

Sounds like a dud. Does the box give a three digit formulation number? That might help diagnose what the problem with that reel may be. Then, of course, unless it was still sealed when you got it it's always possible that the tape inside the box wasn't really a Scotch one.

Scotch-3M were the first makers of recording tape in America! All magnetic recording media in this country look to 3M as ground zero because they were the pioneers of it. The only problem with Scotch is they had so many models of tape through the years. An almost bewildering choice of tape for just about every application you can imagine which will make a newbie's head like yours swim trying to sort it out. So my advice is to stick with the brands you've been advised about now and learn about Scotch's tapes as you go along to help you in the future.

It was a Scotch Professional 150 (Still Sealed). Does that clear anything up ?

 

[empirelvr]

It was a Scotch Professional 150 (Still Sealed). Does that clear anything up ?

Hmmm..that was one of Scotch's workhorses. It wasn't their best, but still, it was a good, dependable tape. It should have worked fine on your machine. Did you try this tape before or after the Radio Shack one? And what bias setting did you use on the machine when you tried it?

 

[GaryJ73167]

Yes. it was tried way before the Radio Shack one. As far as the BIAS settings, I monitor the tape as it's recording, so, I tried a number of combinations of settings, and, to my ears, none of them seemed to sound good compared to other tapes.

 

[empirelvr]

Yes. it was tried way before the Radio Shack one. As far as the BIAS settings, I monitor the tape as it's recording, so, I tried a number of combinations of settings, and, to my ears, none of them seemed to sound good compared to other tapes.

The only thing I can think of is it was probably adjusted for the more modern tapes which would require much more bias than good ol' 150, which would result in dull sounding highs. Or, again, it was just a bum reel.

 

[GaryJ73167]

The only thing I can think of is it was probably adjusted for the more modern tapes which would require much more bias than good ol' 150, which would result in dull sounding highs. Or, again, it was just a bum reel.

That's what I was thinking. Coincidentally, I have another one that came in the mail today (Another Scotch 150), so, I am going to give that a shot since it was already ordered and I have it.

 

[mistermax]

FWIW, I have some backcoated tape that is fine, including a bunch of Maxell UD/XL (35-180B). I also have some Radio Shack (which I think includes Concertape) that is fine, it's not all bad.

There seems to be a fairly steep learning curve in trying to ascertain where to expect SSS on tapes (and also acetate shedding, dry tape, etc.). Having invested in over 250 NOS and used reels of tape, at this point I would agree with the posters above who say don't bother. Just buy new tape from splicit (or ATR if they start selling 7 inch reels). However, in case it's useful, I'll try to cut and paste below a list I have been trying to assemble of tapes with problems, etc. Do not rely on this, a lot of it is just culled from various posts and blogs and so forth on the 'net. It's just a quick reference as a starting point -- and there are lots of tapes not covered here, I was just initially trying to list SSS tapes and expanded it a bit.


Sticky Shed Syndrome Tapes
Ampex - 406, 407, 456, 457, 2020, 373
Ampex 478 “low print”
Ampex 642
Ampex Quality Tape from Pacific Stereo" 1800ft in a white and blue box.
Ampex 20:20 1200ft in silvery- grey box
Scotch/3M - 206/207 (?), 226, 227, 986, some “Classic”
Scotch 250
Sony SLH, ULH, FeCr
Scotch 996 (similar to SSS but apparently worse)
Scotch 966 (replaced 226 in 1990’s but still has problems)
Scotch 986 (same tape as 966)
Scotch 800 series
3M 808 (?)
Agfa PEM 469, PEM 369
Radio Shack/Realistic Concertape, Concert (some good, some bad, random)

Acetate Tapes (avoid)
Scotch 190

Squeaky Tapes
Sony 150 (not sticky but loss of lubrication)

Good Tapes
Ampex 631
All Quantegy
Maxell XL1 35-90B

OK Tapes
Scotch 150
Scotch 111
Ampex 406 (?)
Ampex 641. 631
Ampex 341, Scotch 150, RCA Red Seal

Other Problem Tapes
Scotch 212 (“Highlander”) (oxide separates from base)
228, 229, 211, 176, 177, Highlander, A/V, LowNoise, DynaRange all the same oxide as 212 and have the same problem - oxide separates: NO CURE
228, 229, 211, 212, 176, 177 as well as their very similar 0.5 mil siblings such as 213 (2400ft) and 214 (3600ft) (same oxide)
176/211/228 = 1.5 mil
177/212/229 = 1 mil
213/214 - .5 mil

Low Grade (voice etc):
Ampex 541? ? (mixed opinions)

 

[GaryJ73167]

FWIW, I have some backcoated tape that is fine, including a bunch of Maxell UD/XL (35-180B). I also have some Radio Shack (which I think includes Concertape) that is fine, it's not all bad.

There seems to be a fairly steep learning curve in trying to ascertain where to expect SSS on tapes (and also acetate shedding, dry tape, etc.). Having invested in over 250 NOS and used reels of tape, at this point I would agree with the posters above who say don't bother. Just buy new tape from splicit (or ATR if they start selling 7 inch reels). However, in case it's useful, I'll try to cut and paste below a list I have been trying to assemble of tapes with problems, etc. Do not rely on this, a lot of it is just culled from various posts and blogs and so forth on the 'net. It's just a quick reference as a starting point -- and there are lots of tapes not covered here, I was just initially trying to list SSS tapes and expanded it a bit.


Sticky Shed Syndrome Tapes
Ampex - 406, 407, 456, 457, 2020, 373
Ampex 478 “low print”
Ampex 642
Ampex Quality Tape from Pacific Stereo" 1800ft in a white and blue box.
Ampex 20:20 1200ft in silvery- grey box
Scotch/3M - 206/207 (?), 226, 227, 986, some “Classic”
Scotch 250
Sony SLH, ULH, FeCr
Scotch 996 (similar to SSS but apparently worse)
Scotch 966 (replaced 226 in 1990’s but still has problems)
Scotch 986 (same tape as 966)
Scotch 800 series
3M 808 (?)
Agfa PEM 469, PEM 369
Radio Shack/Realistic Concertape, Concert (some good, some bad, random)

Acetate Tapes (avoid)
Scotch 190

Squeaky Tapes
Sony 150 (not sticky but loss of lubrication)

Good Tapes
Ampex 631
All Quantegy
Maxell XL1 35-90B

OK Tapes
Scotch 150
Scotch 111
Ampex 406 (?)
Ampex 641. 631
Ampex 341, Scotch 150, RCA Red Seal

Other Problem Tapes
Scotch 212 (“Highlander”) (oxide separates from base)
228, 229, 211, 176, 177, Highlander, A/V, LowNoise, DynaRange all the same oxide as 212 and have the same problem - oxide separates: NO CURE
228, 229, 211, 212, 176, 177 as well as their very similar 0.5 mil siblings such as 213 (2400ft) and 214 (3600ft) (same oxide)
176/211/228 = 1.5 mil
177/212/229 = 1 mil
213/214 - .5 mil

Low Grade (voice etc):
Ampex 541? ? (mixed opinions)

Thanks so much for this. I welcome any kind of an education I can give myself right now

 

[empirelvr]

FWIW, I have some backcoated tape that is fine, including a bunch of Maxell UD/XL (35-180B). I also have some Radio Shack (which I think includes Concertape) that is fine, it's not all bad.

There seems to be a fairly steep learning curve in trying to ascertain where to expect SSS on tapes (and also acetate shedding, dry tape, etc.). Having invested in over 250 NOS and used reels of tape, at this point I would agree with the posters above who say don't bother. Just buy new tape from splicit (or ATR if they start selling 7 inch reels). However, in case it's useful, I'll try to cut and paste below a list I have been trying to assemble of tapes with problems, etc. Do not rely on this, a lot of it is just culled from various posts and blogs and so forth on the 'net. It's just a quick reference as a starting point -- and there are lots of tapes not covered here, I was just initially trying to list SSS tapes and expanded it a bit.

Good list, mind if I add and amend it some?


Sticky Shed Syndrome Tapes
Ampex - 406, 407, 456, 457, 2020, 373
Ampex 478 “low print”
Ampex 642
Ampex Quality Tape from Pacific Stereo" 1800ft in a white and blue box.
Ampex 20/20 1200ft in silvery- grey box (Consumer branded version of 406)
Scotch/3M - 226, 227, 986, some “Classic”
Scotch 250
Sony SLH, ULH, FeCr
Scotch 206 (1.5 mil), 207 (1 mil) Most examples don't exhibit SSS. Ones that do seem to be very late versions of the tape.
Scotch 208 (1.5 mil), 209 (1 mil) The reverse of 206/207, there are examples that aren't afflicted with SSS, but you'll find more that are.
Scotch 996 (similar to SSS but apparently worse) (I'll vouch it is absolutely SSS, just a more virulent version of it.)
Scotch 966 (replaced 226 in 1990’s but still has problems)
Scotch 986 (same tape as 966)
Scotch 800 series
Scotch/3M 808 (definitely a SSS tape)
Agfa PEM 469,
Agfa PEM 369
Radio Shack/Realistic Concertape (some good, some bad, random)
Shamrock (same as Concertape)
Irish (post-Ampex)

Acetate Tapes (avoid)
Scotch 190
All Kodak "Durol" base tape (Their nomenclature for acetate.) Haven't seen a reel yet that didn't go vinegar.

Squeaky Tapes
Sony 150 (not sticky but loss of lubrication)
Scotch 175 (as above)

Good Tapes
Ampex 631
Ampex 632 (1 mil version of 631)
All Quantegy I disagree. I have found many Quantegy tapes that suffer from SSS.
Maxell XL1 35-90B Situation is similar to Scotch 206. Some sticky, most aren't.
BASF LP-35
Maxell LN
Maxell UD
TDK LX


OK Tapes
Scotch 150
Scotch 111 (Acetate backed...which makes me say avoid this tape, despite it being the studio standard for over thirty years.)
Scotch 290 (very thin .5 mil Use with caution)
Scotch 200 (very thin .5 mil. Use with caution)
Ampex 641
Ampex 341,
RCA Red Seal (Mylar version only)
Soundcraft (Mylar versions only)
Audiotape (Mylar versions only)
Kodak (Mylar versions only)
Irish (Pre-Ampex mylar versions only)

Other Problem Tapes
Scotch 202 (The poster child for oxide that separates from base when stressed, and some times when not. The most dangerous tape marketed to professionals that was ever made.)
Scotch 212 (“Highlander”) (oxide separates from base)
228, 229, 211, 176, 177, Highlander, A/V, LowNoise, DynaRange all the same oxide as 212 and have the same problem - oxide separates: NO CURE
228, 229, 211, 212, 176, 177 as well as their very similar 0.5 mil siblings such as 213 (2400ft) and 214 (3600ft) (same oxide)
176/211/228 = 1.5 mil
177/212/229 = 1 mil
213/214 - .5 mil

Low Grade (voice etc):
Ampex 541? ? (mixed opinions)

 

[GaryJ73167]

Not meaning to grind gears on the conversation here, but, when it comes to cleaning the heads on my Pioneer RT-707 deck, it is very difficult to see what I am doing being the heads are so close to the bottom of the unit.

Here comes the really stupid question: Is it safe to put the unit on it's side while I clean the heads? It is MUCH easier to see what I am doing and to ensure that all the surface is clean.

Any thoughts ?

 

[empirelvr]

A word (or a thousand...probably way more than you want to hear) about Irish and Shamrock branded tapes, which you will no doubt encounter.

Irish started out as an important tape manufacturer and developed a number of important patents. While it never achieved the recognition it may have deserved, it was a very good brand. They used the Shamrock name on their best tape, which was among the first Mylar (polyester) tapes on the market.

They were such an important player in the early days of tape that when Ampex wanted to get into tape manufacturing in the mid-1960's, instead of starting from scratch they decided to purchase Irish. There was then an overlap period when Ampex marketed the tapes professionally under the Ampex name, and kept the Irish brand for consumers.

In time though, Ampex phased out the Irish name in the consumer market making Ampex the brand for all their tapes across the board.

However, in the very late 1960's the Irish brand name was revived in the consumer marketplace...with no mention of the Ampex name or Ampex's main address...with a line of increasingly inexpensive open reel and cassette tapes that has been suspected to consist of rejected stock (for whatever reason) of the main Ampex audio tape line. Ampex did all they could to distance themselves from this version of Irish but the box styling and fonts used on the labels made it clear where it was coming from. It was also at this point Ampex started dumping non-audio magnetic tape in the consumer audio tape market under the "Shamrock" label, as well as selling the stuff in bulk to places like Lafayette, Radio Shack, and other private labels. (By non-audio magnetic tape, I mean computer data tape, video tape, and specialized tapes never intended to be used on an audio tape recorder.)

Irish's old reputation was ruined by this and the entire line was eventually dropped altogether.

They continued with Shamrock though, but did a better job of hiding it's origins. Only the hold down tape on the end of the reels gave a big clue where the tape was truly coming from. But the connection was either ignored or the market for Shamrock was so far removed from Ampex's core professional and audiophile consumer base that it didn't matter.

That's why late period Irish and Shamrock tapes are so hit and miss. It could be rejects from Ampex best audio tape (meaning it ain't bad) ...or a low grade data tape never meant for audio use. And by "it ain't bad" I mean at the time. Since a lot of Shamrock's late product was backcoated, SSS reared it's head there big time, and it possibly was an issue there before anywhere else.

3M also dumped rejected audio tape on the market, but under the "Melody" brand, and I think the connection between them is only a recent discovery.