• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

How can the same down load sound so different?

Yes. I'm sure. I have an Apple TV 3rd gen. While you can access your iTunes content directly from the Apple TV, when using AirPlay the content is pushed to the Apple TV from the sending device.

I also have a chomecast and I'm quite familiar with how it works, they are different critters
 
Yes. I'm sure. I have an Apple TV 3rd gen. While you can access your iTunes content directly from the Apple TV, when using AirPlay the content is pushed to the Apple TV from the sending device.
In that case, the explanation for the OP's experience is either (a) different file formats of the same song downloaded to the different devices, or (b) graceful degradation due to network connectivity issues.
 
In that case, the explanation for the OP's experience is either (a) different file formats of the same song downloaded to the different devices, or (b) graceful degradation due to network connectivity issues.
Along with more significant differences in the sending units including power supply, DAC, network interface, etc.
 
Along with more significant differences in the sending units including power supply, DAC, network interface, etc.
No, none of those have an effect, as long as they are functioning within design parameters. Digital data is sent from sender to receiver using an error-correcting protocol, and the data is buffered by the receiver. The only relevant DAC is the one in the receiver, and analog conversion is only performed by the receiver. It's exactly the same as copying a file from one computer to another -- the power supply and network interface don't alter the data, up to the point where they fail completely and then the file doesn't copy at all.

However, audio quality may be reduced if network bandwidth limitations -- for example, due to flaky network connections -- cause the receiver's buffer to empty because the receiver plays the data faster than it can receive it from the sender. That would cause playing to stop, so many streaming protocols will attempt to degrade gracefully by lowering resolution or otherwise eliding data in an attempt to reduce bandwidth requirements, with significant audible effect.

You can frequently see the equivalent with video streaming services like BBC iPlayer or Netflix, where network problems will cause visible degradation -- reduced image resolution and sometimes visible smearing or other artefacts -- but not stop the video outright unless the network connection fails completely.
 
No, none of those have an effect, as long as they are functioning within design parameters.
Bwahahahahahahahaha! Too funny, Dave.

The world that lies beyond your experience continues to elude you...

The engineers at many companies like dCS would just shake their heads and smile. ;)
 
Last edited:
The engineers at many companies like dCS would just shake their heads and smile

Have you spoken to them much?

It's interesting that you believe some engineers, but not others. I only have 35 years experience as an electronic design engineer with the research division of a large, multi-national electronics company. What would I know...?
 
Have you spoken to them much?
Their products speak for themselves quite nicely. As do that of others from Audio Research, Ayre, Brinkmann, Meitner, MSB, etc.

I never met Wernher Von Braun, but can most certainly appreciate his expertise. I did, however, witness the launch of his statement product in July 1969 at the Cape. :)

It's interesting that you believe some engineers, but not others.
I pay more attention to those who deliver products with decidedly superior performance. Mediocrity in the marketplace abounds.

I only have 35 years experience as an electronic design engineer with the research division of a large, multi-national electronics company. What would I know...?
Time<>performance. Nelson Pass knocked it out of the park with his first amplifier, the Threshold 800A, eclipsing that of most "seasoned" designers. Conversely, tenure assures nothing.

Who's your audience? What's your targeted budget range? Does your company sell no-compromise statement products?
 
Last edited:
Bwahahahahahahahaha! Too funny, Dave.

The world that lies beyond your experience continues to elude you...

The engineers at many companies like dCS would just shake their heads and smile. ;)
Let's say you have two computers, a laptop and a desktop. When you copy a file -- say, a WAV or FLAC audio file of your favourite tune -- from your laptop to your desktop via your home network, what effect do you think the power supply, network card, or audio DAC in the laptop will have on the sound quality you hear when you play the audio file on your desktop?

The answer is that as long as the file has successfully copied, the laptop's power supply, network interface, and DAC (in the sound card) have no effect on the sound at all, because the conversion to audio is done entirely by the desktop machine.

The copying process (performed by the operating systems and network hardware) ensures that the file copied to the desktop machine is bit-for-bit identical to the file on the laptop, so no matter how that data gets to the desktop machine -- whether copied over the network quickly, or slowly, or even laboriously typed in via the keyboard -- as long as it's the same data on the same desktop machine, it will sound the same on the desktop machine.

It doesn't matter what the laptop's power supply, network interface, or DAC (in the sound card) are doing; as long as they're working to design specifications (and sometimes, even if they're not), the source file on the laptop becomes an identical bit-for-bit copy on the desktop. The power supply, network interface, and DAC in the laptop have no effect on what's played by the desktop. In fact, once the file is copied, you can turn the laptop off!

Only the audio DAC (perhaps in the sound card, perhaps external) in the desktop will have an effect on the sound, and the power supply in the desktop machine might have an audible effect on the DAC's conversion of digital data to audio.

The OP's scenario is exactly the same. The audio file on the sender computer (Mac, MacBook, iPhone) is copied to the receiver computer (Apple TV), and the receiver plays it. As above, the power supply, DAC, and network interface in the sender (Mac, MacBook, iPhone) have no impact on the sound quality of the data played by the Apple TV.

The only difference between the OP's scenario and my example above is that the receiver starts playing the data while it's still being copied. As above, the file is copied from the sender to the receiver and the receiver stores it in memory and/or a file called a buffer, but the receiver starts playing the data from the beginning of the buffer whilst it's still being filled at the end.

However, because the receiver starts playing data from the buffer while it's still being sent by the sender, it's possible for the network to be slow enough -- usually due to network problems -- that it plays all the data in the buffer before it reaches the end of the song. The problem is that the buffer is being emptied by playing faster than it is being filled by copying from the sender.

Rather than annoyingly pause playing to let the buffer fill again, many audio systems recognise when the buffer is almost empty and likely to become completely empty. When that happens, the receiver sends an instruction to the sender to send less data, so that filling the buffer will (hopefully) become faster than the buffer is emptied by playing.

Unfortunately, less data doesn't sound as good as more data. The result is degraded sound due to network problems, but the sender's power supply, network interface (if it's working enough to not cause network problems), and audio DAC have no effect on the sound quality at all.
 
Let's say you have two computers, a laptop and a desktop. When you copy a file -- say, a WAV or FLAC audio file of your favourite tune -- from your laptop to your desktop via your home network, what effect do you think the power supply, network card, or audio DAC in the laptop will have on the sound quality you hear when you play the audio file on your desktop?
For an offline copy, nothing. You're not streaming, playing or hearing anything. With real time playback, a bunch!

“In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice, there is.”
 
For an offline copy, nothing. You're not streaming, playing or hearing anything. With real time playback, a bunch!
Please read the rest. I explained streaming in the context of the OP's post, starting from the paragraph beginning with "The only difference between the OP's scenario and my example above ..."
 
Please read the rest. I explained streaming in the context of the OP's post, starting from the paragraph beginning with "The only difference between the OP's scenario and my example above ..."
Why waste any time with speculations when twiiii has already observed to the contrary?

Maybe someone else will.
 
Last edited:
Why waste any time with speculations when twiiii has already observed to the contrary?
What I wrote is not speculation; it's how streaming over wifi/Internet works.

This thread identifies various reasons why the OP may be experiencing differences in sound, which are not due to sender machine power supplies, sender machine network interfaces (if they're working), and sender machine DACs, because that's not how wifi/Internet streaming works. As we've pointed out, it may be because the source files on the machines are different (we're waiting for the OP's response to cpt_paranoia's queries about that) or because of -- as I explained, and is a known factor in wifi/Internet streaming -- network issues causing graceful degradation (which is sonically or visually anything but "graceful", but that is the technical term.)
 
Last edited:
The OP is screen mirroring not media streaming. There is no file transfer to AppleTV when mirroring. It’s like wireless HDMI. What you see and hear on the host Mac is duplicated on the AppleTV outputs.
For example - iTunes doesn’t play FLAC, therefore a FLAC file can’t be played on a Mac with iTunes and mirrored by Apple TV over AirPlay. By using another player app (VOX, Jriver, Audirvana) on the Mac to play that FLAC file and engaging Airplay the processed stream is received by AppleTV and routed through its DAC.
AppleTV can also autonomously play FLAC files streamed from the host network and any shared drives, but that isn’t done over AirPlay.
 
The OP is screen mirroring not media streaming. There is no file transfer to AppleTV when mirroring. It’s like wireless HDMI. What you see and hear on the host Mac is duplicated on the AppleTV outputs.
For example - iTunes doesn’t play FLAC, therefore a FLAC file can’t be played on a Mac with iTunes and mirrored by Apple TV over AirPlay. By using another player app (VOX, Jriver, Audirvana) on the Mac to play that FLAC file and engaging Airplay the processed stream is received by AppleTV and routed through its DAC.
AppleTV can also autonomously play FLAC files streamed from the host network and any shared drives, but that isn’t done over AirPlay.
Interesting. In the OP's original post, he wrote:

"I have four sources for the same recording via iTunes. Each sounds different when sent to my Apple TV via airplay."​

In a subsequent post, he wrote:

"Depending on which computer of 3 I am using or the iphone I can connect one at a time thru my home network to the apple TV. ... So after connecting to the Home Network setting the password I played the identical music stored on the phone via icloud from the old 24 inch i Mac and the sound was not only different but 3rd rate. Mushy and distorted highs for one and poor definition elsewhere. That bothered me, so I decided to check out each computer played one at time via the home network feeding the Apple TV driving the HT processor in the Stereo mode."​

Does that not mean he's streaming from iCloud/iTunes via AirPlay to the Apple TV, either from local copies of a file on his devices (iPhone, Mac, etc.) or by (assuming this is available) casting directly from iCloud or iTunes?

If he's using screen sharing, I'm not sure how he'd get audio at all, as the underlying VNC/RFB protocol doesn't support audio. (I'll have to test this when I'm home -- see if my Mac Pro can "screen" share audio, along with the video which I use frequently.) If audio is transmitted during screen sharing, then it must be using some parallel audio streaming protocol and then the explanation is simple: All screen sharing mechanisms that support audio -- e.g., Microsoft's RDP -- use (very noticeably) lossy compression of the remote audio. They're intended to limit bandwidth, not for hifi.
 
I have four sources for the same recording via iTunes. Each sounds different
It may be that your various Apple devices are not consistent in reliably connecting to the network, with the result that with some devices the AirPlay protocol is being forced to compensate for reduced bandwidth due to network problems, resulting in a corresponding loss of sound quality.

Dave points to what I notice in varying internet consistency.. and more integration is just over integration. Other hand is source and I do notice from U-tube thru my A6 laptop or galaxy s7 phone same ****. I go down next playlist and hit another link and same song sounds corrected. You can apply same for live sports and bps.. and I can change that most times gets corrected to proper picture (not being blurred) but the audio is correct.

I'm certainly no expert but digital 'bits' don't get corrupted sort of but bit rate can get off I think.. And as noted recording a good cut off the net on e.g. to pc or digital recorder will be the same on play back. Converting to say mp3 you will not have the same sound.. mp3 is pretty poor Imo.
 
I can't stand it when equipment does what it want to do rather than what I tell it to do. This is why I avoided iTunes when it first came out. I ended up having to help a friend figure out where his music files were after iTunes was installed on his computer. ITunes moved all the files to where it wanted them. I knew right then and there that I would have no use for iTunes.
 
Their products speak for themselves quite nicely.

That's a no, then. So you have no idea how they would react to Dave's statements. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't laugh. They might have a chuckle at your suggestion that the sender's DAC is in any way involved in the digital transmission of data over WiFi:

Perhaps I'm mistaken - that of the sender?

Yes, you are mistaken. The sender's audio DAC plays absolutely no part in the digital transmission of data over WiFi. From this comment alone, it's clear you really don't understand digital audio systems, and how they are transmitted, and how they are implemented. Your suggestion that Dave's (correct) description of how streaming works is speculation backs up this lack of understanding.

My point was that you are speaking to engineers here. In my case, I have worked with digital transmission systems since I started my career, and I'm surrounded by similar engineers. We exchange ideas. We learn from the latest research in academia and industry. We peer review each others' work. As I said, it's for a research division, so we tend to do stuff that isn't mundane, or run of the mill; other divisions within our group (and government, and inter-governmental organisations) come to us for our expertise. We don't do consumer electronics. Well, the last consumer electronics I was involved with was the development of enabling technology for the GSM standard, and one particular GSM network, way back in 1987-1989 (that network currently has a market capitalisation of over £50Bn). And that enabling technology was the digital transmission system, with a very tight spectral purity requirement. That requires the same techniques for controlling system noise as are used for digital audio, and which I elaborated earlier.

I know about digital modulation and data recovery.
I know about signal to noise ratios, noise margins and eye diagrams.
I know about about oscillator phase noise, crystal oscillators, clock recovery, VCOs and PLLs.
I know about forward error correction schemes, and how they respond to errors.
I know how digital transmission protocols detect and cope with receive data errors.
I know how streaming data protocols work.
I know about multipath fading, shadowing, signal attenuation and interference.
I know about digital sampling theory.
I know about digital noise, and conducted and radiated emissions, and how to prevent noise coupling between functional blocks.
I know how to partition a system into functional blocks, and which are critical to signal quality, and which are less important.
These are all fundamental techniques, understood by any practicing digital communications engineer. Or any digital audio engineer.

There's nothing that the esoteric hifi guys do that is unusual. They just take the same, fundamental techniques I use, and maybe concentrate a bit harder on certain aspects. A lot of the time, they concentrate too hard, and massively over-engineer things, because it sounds nice on the marketing brochure, to no useful effect.

I've tried patiently and courteously to provide as clear a description as I can of what is involved, in the hope that I can guide you to a better understanding, but if you're not prepared to listen, and only want to resort to derision, then I'm not prepared to try to help you further. Without an understanding of the fundamentals of digital system design, it will be hard to know where best to concentrate your efforts at improving your digital audio system.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom