How does the amp produced around 2000 compare the amp produced nowadays?

[Oscarshock]

Basically, I realized that this is a difficult question to answer. But I am actually wonder how people will response in different scenarios. Personally, this question comes to my mind because I am looking to replace my current integrated amp (Denon Pma-600ne ) with a older power amp (Myryad ma 240). Of course, the obvious reason I am doing this is because of my limited budget and space. In addition, I am looking for a replacement also because I not longer need all the functions that the Denon provides and I actually want a little bit more power to drive my speaker to see what happens. In this case, Denon has 45w in 8ohms ,while Myryad has 120w. Don't worry about the preamp function as I am going to have a separate one soon.

 

[onwardjames]

If you want good watts, clean, powerful amps are rather plentiful now. 20 years ago, the better quality stuff is exceptional.

There's good gear from both eras. I absolutely cannot recommend the Allo Volt+D amp enough. This little guy changed it all for me.

The detail in that tiny package is astounding, and packs a punch.

 

[Guido57]

IMAHO opinion class A/B amps are a mature technology. I don't think new vs Y2K era stuff will sound much different if the manufacturers build to the same quality/detail level.
20 years old may be a sweet spot for value/dollar, but again just an opinion and local market conditions vary widely.
@onwardjames recommendation ( he has made it several times before) does make me curios but not enough (yet) to try one despite the bargain price. I'm still not sure about bargain level class D.
(At the moment I'm throwing what little cash I have at DIY and fixing vintage. Covers two bases: audio and hobby.)

 

[GChief]

recommend the Allo Volt+D amp enough

Amen, love mine.

 

[DavidTT]

I'll chime in and:

(1) agree with a couple of previous posters that modern Class D has become really good. The Allo has a great reputation. Also, I just picked up a Fosi Audio V3 with their 48V/5A power supply and am currently subbing it into my main system. It's the size of a paperback book and puts out a genuine 89wpc/8ohms and 145wpc/4ohms, sounding truly good at the same time. I'm kinda awe struck with the thing and cannot believe how good these little cheap amps are getting. Of course, for much more money there are the superlative designs from Hypex and Purify as well, but this Fosi V3 cost $105 with big power supply.

(2) Regarding Class AB that is used and price-attractive, I've done plenty of experimenting in that world as well. The best deals I commonly see are on Adcom and Niles. Adcom amps are built like brick sh*t houses and sound great, but old-school audiophiles tend to poo-poo them (for reasons I'll never understand) so they sell for very little. I've seen GFA-535 examples for as little as $100 and owned one for a time. Excellent. I also owned a GFA-5400, built late 1990s or early 2000s, that was like newl and sounded fantastic, that cost $300. Great value and I should have kept that thing.

Niles amps are widely considered to be distributed-sound/installation amps but they are built VERY well and sound great and test well. I owned a SI-275 and it performed very nicely and cost about $100. Niles amps are some of the only models you'll find rated down to 2 ohms, which tells me they are built very well and can pass serious current without breaking down. These are not amps that audiophiles will tend to smile at, but perform very well, which makes them great value.

All food for thought. There is really no need to splash big money for amplification in 2023 unless you want 'prestige' to be part of your game.

Lastly, consider your actual needs. You say your room is small but you don't note your speakers. Your 45wpc Denon will make serious SPL with sensitive speakers, especially in a small room. Check some of the SPL calculators on the web to get an idea of the peak SPL you can expect at your listening position from those 45wpc. You'll be surprised. Also, most of us use little more than a watt for most listening. The idea that we need massive wattage is more of a myth than anything.

 

[onwardjames]

Amen, love mine.

Pio1980 said what I find to be the definitive reason I like this amp so much.

He asked me, "Does it make the music more involving to you?"

YES, very much so. @Guido57 my man, DO IT. I know I've wasted the same money on far less.

The Allo Volt+D is such a leap forward over my previous "little" amp, the venerable Topping TP-60, that it is comical.

 

[Guido57]

Pio1980 said what I find to be the definitive reason I like this amp so much.

He asked me, "Does it make the music more involving to you?"

Have to admit that is the best phrasing of the question I have heard and is essentially what brought me to the point I am at now.
Admittedly I have no idea where I am now but with regards to music reproduction it is better than where I was before.
At this point it is a journey, not a destination.
Perhaps I should try it, if I were to lose 50% on resale it is not that much in the grand scheme. The small size would be great for WAF though it would need to be hidden as the clear plastic case is definitely low WAF.

 

[Oscarshock]

If you want good watts, clean, powerful amps are rather plentiful now. 20 years ago, the better quality stuff is exceptional.

There's good gear from both eras. I absolutely cannot recommend the Allo Volt+D amp enough. This little guy changed it all for me.

The detail in that tiny package is astounding, and packs a punch.

Interesting, I will definitely put this Class D amp into my wish list, I am interested to see how well it can perform with such a small volume. And indeed, it doesn't cost a lot.

 

[Oscarshock]

IMAHO opinion class A/B amps are a mature technology. I don't think new vs Y2K era stuff will sound much different if the manufacturers build to the same quality/detail level.
20 years old may be a sweet spot for value/dollar, but again just an opinion and local market conditions vary widely.
@onwardjames recommendation ( he has made it several times before) does make me curios but not enough (yet) to try one despite the bargain price. I'm still not sure about bargain level class D.
(At the moment I'm throwing what little cash I have at DIY and fixing vintage. Covers two bases: audio and hobby.)

Yes, I agree. It sounds to me that things produced around 20 - 25 years ago is a sweet spot for used item, especially for amplifier. Somehow, I think due to the low demanding, the hifi market is skewed. Since if it is healthy and high demanding, it should look like the pc market that we are seeing nowadays.

 

[Oscarshock]

I'll chime in and:

(1) agree with a couple of previous posters that modern Class D has become really good. The Allo has a great reputation. Also, I just picked up a Fosi Audio V3 with their 48V/5A power supply and am currently subbing it into my main system. It's the size of a paperback book and puts out a genuine 89wpc/8ohms and 145wpc/4ohms, sounding truly good at the same time. I'm kinda awe struck with the thing and cannot believe how good these little cheap amps are getting. Of course, for much more money there are the superlative designs from Hypex and Purify as well, but this Fosi V3 cost $105 with big power supply.

(2) Regarding Class AB that is used and price-attractive, I've done plenty of experimenting in that world as well. The best deals I commonly see are on Adcom and Niles. Adcom amps are built like brick sh*t houses and sound great, but old-school audiophiles tend to poo-poo them (for reasons I'll never understand) so they sell for very little. I've seen GFA-535 examples for as little as $100 and owned one for a time. Excellent. I also owned a GFA-5400, built late 1990s or early 2000s, that was like newl and sounded fantastic, that cost $300. Great value and I should have kept that thing.

Niles amps are widely considered to be distributed-sound/installation amps but they are built VERY well and sound great and test well. I owned a SI-275 and it performed very nicely and cost about $100. Niles amps are some of the only models you'll find rated down to 2 ohms, which tells me they are built very well and can pass serious current without breaking down. These are not amps that audiophiles will tend to smile at, but perform very well, which makes them great value.

All food for thought. There is really no need to splash big money for amplification in 2023 unless you want 'prestige' to be part of your game.

Lastly, consider your actual needs. You say your room is small but you don't note your speakers. Your 45wpc Denon will make serious SPL with sensitive speakers, especially in a small room. Check some of the SPL calculators on the web to get an idea of the peak SPL you can expect at your listening position from those 45wpc. You'll be surprised. Also, most of us use little more than a watt for most listening. The idea that we need massive wattage is more of a myth than anything.

I actually think that the spl from my current setup isn't that bad. I am using a elac dbr 62 which has 86db sensitivity and the 45wpc Denon is driving it without a problem. What I actually wonder about the myth of the higher watts is the dynamic range. In addition, since I will have a separate preamp soon, all the extra functions on Denon seems useless to me and just adding more noise. It is in this case, I am wondering whether if the more powerful amp will actually bring a larger dynamic range than before to the performance of my speaker. And in order to not break my bank, the used item is my best option.

 

[spark1]

The need for enough power to avoid (minimize) clipping distortion is not a myth. Just as the need for a beefy power supply and output section to handle difficult loads is not a myth.

While often referred to as dynamic range, the need for headroom - that is, power in reserve above the continuous (aka average) power output at a given SPL - is actually driven by the momentary/transient peaks occurring in the music. In a good recording, these peaks can be 12-15dB higher (louder) - or more - than the continuous signal level.

So, for example, if your amp is pushing 2 watts on a continuous (RMS) basis at your chosen volume, it would need to be able to deliver 64 clean watts to handle a 15dB peak without clipping...and do so into the load presented by your chosen speakers. There are some who believe that there are also "micro-transients" that are so brief as to be difficult to measure but demand even more power (voltage).

BTW, dynamic range is the difference between the quietest and loudest signals in the recording, as opposed to the difference between the average level of the signal and the loudest portion. Similar, but different. As applies to a playback system, vs a recording, dynamic range is the space between the noise floor and the clipping point.

And headroom is the available power your amp has "in reserve" when running at a given continuous output level; that is, the power available to amplify the peaks - the louder portions - of the signal. As is probably obvious, as you increase your listening level (higher average SPL), headroom of a given amp shrinks.

Somewhat confusingly, there is another definition of headroom, sometimes presented as an amplifier spec termed "dynamic headroom. In this usage, it is the difference, in dB, between the rated RMS output of the amp and the output it can produce momentarily without clipping. However, the standards for determining "dynamic headroom" are not well-defined.

If you are interested in budget-oriented Class D amps, consider some of the Fosi offerings along with the Allo. The VR3 referenced above is getting a lot of very positive reviews, and tested very well at ASR. Comes with 32V or optional 48V power supply, for under a Benjamin all in.

 

[DavidTT]

The need for enough power to avoid (minimize) clipping distortion is not a myth. Just as the need for a beefy power supply and output section to handle difficult loads is not a myth.

While often referred to as dynamic range, the need for headroom - that is, power in reserve above the continuous (aka average) power output at a given SPL - is actually driven by the momentary/transient peaks occurring in the music. In a good recording, these peaks can be 12-15dB higher (louder) - or more - than the continuous signal level in a good recording.

So, for example, if your amp is pushing 2 watts on a continuous (RMS) basis at your chosen volume, it would need to be able to deliver 64 clean watts to handle a 15dB peak without clipping...and do so into the load presented by your chosen speakers. There are some who believe that there are also "micro-transients" that are so brief as to be difficult to measure but demand even more power (voltage).

BTW, dynamic range is the difference between the quietest and loudest signals in the recording, as opposed to the difference between the average level of the signal and the loudest portion. Similar, but different. As applies to a playback system, vs a recording, dynamic range is the space between the noise floor and the clipping point.

And headroom is the available power your amp has "in reserve" when running at a given continuous output level; that is, the power available to amplify the peaks - the louder portions - of the signal. As is probably obvious, as you increase your listening level (higher average SPL), headroom of a given amp shrinks.

Somewhat confusingly, there is another definition of headroom, sometimes presented as an amplifier spec. In this usage, it is the difference, in dB, between the rated RMS output of the amp and the output it can produce momentarily without clipping.

If you are interested in budget-oriented Class D amps, consider some of the Fosi offerings along with the Allo. The VR3 referenced above is getting a lot of very positive reviews, and tested very well at ASR. Comes with 32V or optional 48V power supply, for under a Benjamin all in.

I see this explanation often when it comes to amplifier power, and you explained it very nicely, but there is something about these calls for power that doesn't fit with the real world experience of many of us. Many have used relatively low powered amplifiers for decades, including tube designs, that would be clipping constantly in the commonly described scenario, but it's not a frequent complaint from users of low power equipment. There are plenty of listeners out there happily working with 20-60wpc without problem. If my use case only calls for 40 watts why do I want to pay for double the power?

Also, using the peak SPL calculators, the OP can achieve peaks at 101.9db from 45wpc when seated 10 feet from his speakers, which are quite insensitive. That's more than enough to wreck one's hearing in short order. The 'more power' discussions never get me past the question why I would ever want to make more peak SPL than that, nor why I would want to pay for more power than I need in my situation.

My own experience is that I listen at low levels, rarely above 60db, with 70-ish db being damned loud (to me) in my room. I'm using less than a watt most of the time and accounting for peaks probably never using more than 20-30wpc. I've had 'big iron' 200wpc amps in my main system and it became clear that, beyond weighing a ton and taking up lots of space, they were largely wasted on my system.

My current main amp is a Dared VP-20, an 18wpc 6L6 push-pull design that drives 92db sensitive JBLs, and my listening never even pushes the Dared. I understand there may be momentary instances during which the amp is 'soft clipping' but I never hear obvious distortion and there is plenty of volume/power left during normal listening. Not long ago I was using 90wpc and 100wpc before that, in the same system. The bigger amps neither provided enhanced 'grip', tighter bass, nor ease of delivery, things advocates of big power often describe. I think for the listener not rocking out (and wrecking their ears and making their neighbors hate them BTW) there just isn't the need for power so often pressed.

Unless driving extremely insensitive speaker loads, I suspect that most of us are likely to be using one watt or less most of the time.

 

[Pio1980]

Basically, I realized that this is a difficult question to answer. But I am actually wonder how people will response in different scenarios. Personally, this question comes to my mind because I am looking to replace my current integrated amp (Denon Pma-600ne ) with a older power amp (Myryad ma 240). Of course, the obvious reason I am doing this is because of my limited budget and space. In addition, I am looking for a replacement also because I not longer need all the functions that the Denon provides and I actually want a little bit more power to drive my speaker to see what happens. In this case, Denon has 45w in 8ohms ,while Myryad has 120w. Don't worry about the preamp function as I am going to have a separate one soon.

The Allo Volt+D can provide ca 30 WPC into an 8 ohm loading with a 24V/4A power supply, somewhat less than your present amp may be rated, but with a detailed musical immersion that is hard to describe. SQ is exceptional at any price, a bargain at $125 or so, plus power supply.

 

[Pio1980]

Basically, I realized that this is a difficult question to answer. But I am actually wonder how people will response in different scenarios. Personally, this question comes to my mind because I am looking to replace my current integrated amp (Denon Pma-600ne ) with a older power amp (Myryad ma 240). Of course, the obvious reason I am doing this is because of my limited budget and space. In addition, I am looking for a replacement also because I not longer need all the functions that the Denon provides and I actually want a little bit more power to drive my speaker to see what happens. In this case, Denon has 45w in 8ohms ,while Myryad has 120w. Don't worry about the preamp function as I am going to have a separate one soon.

Reread the op, query is abt more power tho I responded to the Allo rec.
More power into speakers that can handle it in a regular size room that doesn't soak up sound can be more effective pounding the sound at and into the occupants if that is the goal.
It would depend on how you listen, what you listen to, and your expectations and priorities SQ vs loudness for loudness' sake.
We know nothing of the preceeding, or your speakers.

 

[OldJBL]

Basically, I realized that this is a difficult question to answer. But I am actually wonder how people will response in different scenarios. Personally, this question comes to my mind because I am looking to replace my current integrated amp (Denon Pma-600ne ) with a older power amp (Myryad ma 240). Of course, the obvious reason I am doing this is because of my limited budget and space. In addition, I am looking for a replacement also because I not longer need all the functions that the Denon provides and I actually want a little bit more power to drive my speaker to see what happens. In this case, Denon has 45w in 8ohms ,while Myryad has 120w. Don't worry about the preamp function as I am going to have a separate one soon.

You shouldn't rule out using an AVR for use as a two channel receiver. Many of them have excellent DACs and amp sections and can be bought for very little money. I recently bought a Denon X3500H for $110 and found it produces some of the best two channel output I have heard. AVRs allow easy integration of a subwoofer into your system should you want to do this in the future.

Also, I can personally recommend the NAD receivers, integrated amps and amps with the "Power Envelope" designation (sometimes denoted as "PE" in the model name). These units provide incredible dynamic headroom making them deliver SQ well beyond their rated power output. These components can be had for very reasonable prices in good working condition.

 

[C Hart]

Price/perfomance vs. value arguments will continue on AK until someone wins. ;-)

IMO new IC-based class D amps have moved the needle toward very high performance at low (in some cases very low) cost.

But for the OP's question, for any era there will be great performing amps. I don't know those units specifically but 120 watts from a good amp will play cleanly and noticably louder than 45.

I agree with prior posters who cite headroom as a key performance factor. So I like more watts as a personal preference even though I rarely play even at 1 watt, which is ~79dB 6' from my speakers (@89dB efficiency) and pretty darn loud.

One additional reason to get more watts is that amps generally perform better at lower than rated output, so a big amp may have nearly unmeasurable distortion at 1 or even 100 watts.

 

[painttoad]

i'd rather have more power and not "need" it than need it and not have it.

the only modern amps i've heard recently are emotiva and marantz and i would personally rather have older gear.

100wpc+ adcoms and b&ks from 20-30 years ago are fairly cheap.

 

[GChief]

i'd rather have more power and not "need" it than need it and not have it.

the only modern amps i've heard recently are emotiva and marantz and i would personally rather have older gear.

100wpc+ adcoms and b&ks from 20-30 years ago are fairly cheap.

See I am just the opposite. Having owned and/or heard all the above. I like my Emotiva better than my old SS amps. Matter of fact all the old ones have left the building after getting the Emotiva.

And guess what, it's OK we have a difference of opinion

You and I have done this plenty of times without getting butthurt, I dont get some people.

 

[painttoad]

See I am just the opposite. Having owned and/or heard all the above. I like my Emotiva better than my old SS amps. Matter of fact all the old ones have left the building after getting the Emotiva.

And guess what, it's OK we have a difference of opinion

You and I have done this plenty of times without getting butthurt, I dont get some people.

i knew you liked emotiva, that's why i brought it up. show people how grown ups act

 

[spark1]

I like amplifiers that sound good to me. Some of them are old, some of them are new, and some are in-between.