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How easy is it to detect stylus wear/damage audibly? Help Needed.

thomas610

New Member
This is a question I have never been able to answer, In the past I have attempted to determine whether my stylus needs replacing due to wear or damage but have never been able to detect the distortion, sibillance or muffling associated with stylus wear.

Hypothetically, if my stylus was damaged would these factors be easily identifiable and would I know straight away that I need to replace it? Or is the issue far more complicated than that?

Thanks

Tom
 
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This is a question I have never been able to answer, In the past I have attempted to determine whether my stylus needs replacing due to wear or damage but have never been able to detect the distortion, sibillance or muffling associated with stylus wear.

Hypothetically, if my stylus was damaged would these factors be easily identifiable and would I know straight away that I need to replace it? Or is the issue far more complicated than that?

Thanks

Tom
depends upon the accuracy of your system first. as the stylus starts to wear flat spots, the highest frequencies recorded are the one to go, Those frequencies are the second, third, fourth orders of the highest full notes/tones. Then it comes down to you being able to hear those frequencies. if your system cant portray them, you can't hear them.
As the stylus wears into flat spots, the edges of those flats are sharp, and will erase the highest frequencies from the vinyl. You should have your diamond examined every few hundred hours for wear. Albums played often with a worn diamond won't sound much different with a new diamond in the highest of registers, maybe worse due to the smaller scanning ares of the new diamond being able to read the damage caused by the old stylus.
 
I'm with Luke85. I think much has been made over groove wear. Although Marcmorin's post is very well thought out in theory, I have discs that were probably played on old consoles that tracked at heavy tracking forces with god-knows-what and they play wonderfully. I don't notice any lack of highs in them. I think it's more a matter of a worn stylus sounds bad. In short, if you can hear something that would cause you to question the condition of your stylus, it's probably time to replace it.
 
I also think too much worry is made over groove wear. If a stylus gets worn I don't see how it could damage a record or remove the high frequencies since cartridges track at such a low weight. Mine are all at 1.4 to 1.5 grams.
 
What I've noticed is that certain frequencies on the end of an LP side start to sound grainy and unpleasant when the stylus is becoming worn out.

If you have Aja (my favorite test record), it has specific places that I know will always emphasize this effect -- the sax ensemble work towards the end of "Deacon Blues" or the guitar solo on "Josie".
 
What I've been told from my earliest days in the hobby is that if you wait until you hear an audible difference, you're already damaging your records. This quote from Breier Audio is typical, "As the diamond wears, and the flat spots get larger, the stylus will have difficulty tracking the high frequencies. Your first audible sign of stylus wear will be distortion of instruments like cymbals and violins. Unfortunately, by the time you hear the distortion your needle may already be shaving the vinyl off your record grooves."

When I've had a local dealer, I'd take my stylus in for inspection as marcmorin suggested. At present, I use a Shure M97xE, but the local dealer who used to sell them, and had a microscope for proper evaluation of the stylus tip, closed several years ago. For now, I just take the precaution of changing my stylus every 500 hours. This is about 300 hours less than I used to get when my stylus could be inspected, but my setup is a bit different in that I'm using a Rega RP3 with antiskate set to minimum and with tracking force set a bit higher. This is how this 'table and cartridge combination sounds best to me, and is similar to how VPI has long suggested it be done. VPI has said that under these running conditions, changing the stylus at 500 hours is a good precaution, and I'm happy to follow that advice. For the sake of my record collection, I've always preferred to err on the side of caution when it comes to stylus wear and record damage, and putting on a new $59 stylus every 9 or 10 months is not something I find onerous in terms of cost (feeding my coffee habit and paying lane fees at the bowling alley both consume many, many times that amount of money in the same time period).
 
I also think too much worry is made over groove wear. If a stylus gets worn I don't see how it could damage a record or remove the high frequencies since cartridges track at such a low weight. Mine are all at 1.4 to 1.5 grams.
the edge of the tracing face becomes sharp.
 
I think it's good to compare the SQ with a new needle.
Its good to test sound quality with a new stylus, and then another copy of the same album, that has low hours on it, and those hours are with a known good stylus., set-up, etc. I have multiple copies of listening "test albums" for that reason.
 
The problem with using multiple copies of the same album is that different pressing can sound different depending on the master tape sent to the pressing plant.
 
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The problem with using multiple copies of the same album is that different pressing can sound different depending on the master tape sent to the pressing plant.

normally when buying doubles, I buy them at the same time. betting they came out of the same box at the store, normally would suspect they came off the same press at near the same time.
 
What I've been told from my earliest days in the hobby is that if you wait until you hear an audible difference, you're already damaging your records. This quote from Breier Audio is typical, "As the diamond wears, and the flat spots get larger, the stylus will have difficulty tracking the high frequencies. Your first audible sign of stylus wear will be distortion of instruments like cymbals and violins. Unfortunately, by the time you hear the distortion your needle may already be shaving the vinyl off your record grooves."

When I've had a local dealer, I'd take my stylus in for inspection as marcmorin suggested. At present, I use a Shure M97xE, but the local dealer who used to sell them, and had a microscope for proper evaluation of the stylus tip, closed several years ago. For now, I just take the precaution of changing my stylus every 500 hours. This is about 300 hours less than I used to get when my stylus could be inspected, but my setup is a bit different in that I'm using a Rega RP3 with antiskate set to minimum and with tracking force set a bit higher. This is how this 'table and cartridge combination sounds best to me, and is similar to how VPI has long suggested it be done. VPI has said that under these running conditions, changing the stylus at 500 hours is a good precaution, and I'm happy to follow that advice. For the sake of my record collection, I've always preferred to err on the side of caution when it comes to stylus wear and record damage, and putting on a new $59 stylus every 9 or 10 months is not something I find onerous in terms of cost (feeding my coffee habit and paying lane fees at the bowling alley both consume many, many times that amount of money in the same time period).

$59 for a stylus? I wish I could get away with that. Being a fan of moving coils, that gets a little spendy. Even if I went to a good line contact MM, that would get a little spendy. Everyone's ears differ, but I've found that entry level carts just don't cut it for me -- the snap, crackle and pop level gets to me along with the lack of detail in comparison. Figuring even $125 for a replacement stylus, that's a $0.25 an hour.

Part of the challenges that I face in having my stylii inspected is that I live at least an hour from any population center that might offer such a service, and I really don't know of one that does.

Curious, any old ex-radio employees out there that might recall what the interval of stylus changes was on broadcast tables back in the day? Of course, they tracked heavier than most audiophile tables, but...
 
The Denon 103 Moving coil has a lovely nude conical diamond and pictured is a well worn out one. This picture is through my Wild M5 microscope....
denon103at0.jpg
With the stage rotated to the point where you can see the contact surface reflections change shape we are well past 25 degrees in each quadrant.....
denon103at330.jpg

If someone wants to do the trig the new width of the contact surface can be determined. Now we would call it a flat but in reality it is just a greater wider radius. My chart from back in the day says the new worn width would be 310 millionths of a inch at 20 degrees wear per quadrant.......340 millionths at 25 degrees and 360 millionths at 30 degrees. We would measure per quadrant to see if the stylus was "dog tracking" or if the antiskate or alignment was off. For wear we would look at the two adjacent quadrants.....
 
The Denon 103 Moving coil has a lovely nude conical diamond and pictured is a well worn out one. This picture is through my Wild M5 microscope....
View attachment 1012112
With the stage rotated to the point where you can see the contact surface reflections change shape we are well past 25 degrees in each quadrant.....
View attachment 1012117

If someone wants to do the trig the new width of the contact surface can be determined. Now we would call it a flat but in reality it is just a greater wider radius. My chart from back in the day says the new worn width would be 310 millionths of a inch at 20 degrees wear per quadrant.......340 millionths at 25 degrees and 360 millionths at 30 degrees. We would measure per quadrant to see if the stylus was "dog tracking" or if the antiskate or alignment was off. For wear we would look at the two adjacent quadrants.....

worn, but pretty even, one side shows a bit more. however, the contact area is still round, and highly reflective. instead of being "egg shaped" and non reflective. Looks more like the polished area is slightly larger. might check that against a .3 X .7 stone to compare the size of the scanning area.
 
Must be nice to just replace a stylus and only spend 59 dollars. It has been a long time since I enjoyed that low price point. As for the post where you don't think your stylus can do any damage because you track less than 2 grams. 2 grams of weight focused on such a small contact point equates into several tons at the point of contact. My main problem is keeping track of hours on my carts. My Denon has a lot of hours on it yet it still sounds good, but I know it has some hours. Guess its time to think about a new cart.
 
I agree with Marc. While it is possible to be too obsessive, we can't be too lackadaisical about wear because, although minor wear with the wear areas staying rounded won't hurt the record, if the edges do become sharp, they will scrape off vinyl and that's permanent damage. I have heard the results of that many times.

Doug
 
$59 for a stylus? I wish I could get away with that. Being a fan of moving coils, that gets a little spendy. Even if I went to a good line contact MM, that would get a little spendy. Everyone's ears differ, but I've found that entry level carts just don't cut it for me -- the snap, crackle and pop level gets to me along with the lack of detail in comparison. Figuring even $125 for a replacement stylus, that's a $0.25 an hour.

Part of the challenges that I face in having my stylii inspected is that I live at least an hour from any population center that might offer such a service, and I really don't know of one that does.
When I've had more expensive cartridges (not terribly high-priced; things like the Linn Asaka and Grado Statement Platinum1), I was able to buy them from a local dealer who could inspect them for me periodically, helping me maximize their useful life. I would find not having access to that quite a challenge, too. I'm surprised, though, that you found excessive snap, crackle, and pop with a moving magnet cartridge. I find the M97xE admirably well behaved in this respect, as was a Grado Green1, Stanton 500 AL Mk II, Sumiko Black Pearl, and many others.

Yes, ears are different, and mine just haven't seemed to appreciate the qualities that expensive cartridges have to offer over what I can get from a modest moving magnet. In the past, I was happy to spend money to replace my old LP12 with a new Cirkus model and upgrade to an Ittok arm from a Basik Plus, but higher-priced cartridges (which I had plenty of familiarity with through comparative auditions and working part-time at an audio specialty shop) didn't seem to give me the same kind of fundamental musical improvement that those other changes did.
 
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worn, but pretty even, one side shows a bit more. however, the contact area is still round, and highly reflective. instead of being "egg shaped" and non reflective. Looks more like the polished area is slightly larger. might check that against a .3 X .7 stone to compare the size of the scanning area.

The reason some dealers would invest the thousands of dollars in a Wild M5 microscope was to take the guesswork out of stylus wear.......looking at the shape, or sparkle, or sharpness is just new words for a guess.

We would rotate the stylus through the light to note where the wear pattern would start and stop. Typically you would rock the rotating mount from the un worn to worn fine tuning to the point where you could see it just change. You then would note the degree measurement. This would be done for all 4 quadrants.......

Again no guesswork but real number measurements of the flattened out contact radius......
 
Must be nice to just replace a stylus and only spend 59 dollars. It has been a long time since I enjoyed that low price point. . .
Good news! It is still possible to buy a new M97xE and enjoy low-cost stylus replacements! And yes, it's also pretty nice to just slide off the old stylus assembly, slide in a new one, and be done. But I'm sure that whatever the added cost or work involved, you're hearing things from your Denon that make it all worthwhile for you. With my current setup, I was able to audition several options at different price points, and to my ears, nothing sounded better than the Shure, and its cost-effectiveness and easy stylus replacement are very nice additional benefits.
 
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