How easy is it to detect stylus wear/damage audibly? Help Needed.
From the Times article:
A good discussion and I've spend many a moment trying to get the light just right to see if the stylus is worn, using a x75 hand-held scope, Frustrating in the extreme and I can't share what I see, so I finally splashed out $35 on a Plugable USB microscope. It's amazingly good and leaves me in no doubt about whether my apparently good stylus has a missing tip or is worn beyond limits. Here are a couple of shots I've taken - are these styli good or not?
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Look at post #14 in this thread. That's the angle and magnification you need. Only the smallest portion of the tip is down in the groove.
The problem I have is if the "it was recommended" was coming from a stylus manufacturer or a retailer. Because consciously or not, that's biased information. Someone is making a living off of your fear of damaging your records.
Here's another example of the problem with "recommendations." There's loads of misinformation out there -- even here on AK by people who should know better -- about how lower VTF is better for record wear and stylus life. The genesis of this idea can be traced to Shure white papers (read: marketing materials) touting the V15 series. And yet it's repeated as gospel.
DustyOldPile
Vinyl Goddess
I would concur with bangsezmax. The audio industry isn't exactly known for their honesty in providing truthful information. Else we wouldn't have "brilliant pebbles". (Someone is sure to take offense to that...)
In addition to dealer or manufacturer sources, I read that same advice about changing your stylus before you hear audible degradation in articles in the popular magazines (e.g., Gramophone, High Fidelity, Stereo Review). Part of the issue is that distortion increases gradually, so we don't hear a stark change. The advice given in some posts above about doing comparative listening with a new stylus could alleviate that issue, but that would only be convenient for those of us using cartridges with replaceable stylus assemblies. Another issue, at least for those of us with aging ears, is that since damage occurs in the highest frequencies first, differences we could easily hear 20 years ago may go unnoticed now. Perhaps I shouldn't care about things I can't hear, but I still like the idea of taking the best care I can of my record collection.
So what studies have you seen that show that lower tracking forces are not better for record wear and stylus life? What I've read from numerous sources is that record wear is related to VTF, and that this varies with stylus size/shape. For example, a .7 mil conical will erase some high frequencies (15 kHz) at 6 grams but not at 3 grams, and a small elliptical (.2 mil side radius) needs 1.5 grams to equal the gentleness of a .7 mil conical at 3 grams. Vinyl has some elasticity, but it can be permanently deformed by a VTF that's too high, and again, this varies with stylus size and shape (e.g., Stereophile reported that most elliptical styli will do that at 2.25 grams, while other studies indicate a .5 mil conical won't do that til 3.1 grams).
@jrtrent -- are there links to these studies?
In general, I'm going to be suspicious of anything directly (manufacturers) or indirectly (advertisers) coming from the audio industry. I trust my ears more than I trust them.
I'll say it again -- I think there's more fear that factual information driving a lot of these claims.
I'll also say that reasonable people can disagree on this issue. The ultimate proof is -- as always -- in the subjective experience of the listener.
In general, I'm going to be suspicious of anything directly (manufacturers) or indirectly (advertisers) coming from the audio industry. I trust my ears more than I trust them.
I'll say it again -- I think there's more fear that factual information driving a lot of these claims.
I'll also say that reasonable people can disagree on this issue. The ultimate proof is -- as always -- in the subjective experience of the listener.
DustyOldPile
Vinyl Goddess
My records won't do me any good when I'm dead. I probably have only a decade or two of hearing that's worth a diddle left anyway, and 2500 records. My very favorite 10 records might get another 30 plays max. I doubt I have much to worry about and if I do, well, who cares. To me, my records are prized possessions. To everyone I'll leave behind, they're junk to dispose of.
Not that I'm aware of. Most of what I've read was in the periodicals stacks of the college I attended several decades ago. If you Google search the terms "Klaus record wear" you'll find some bits of information he quoted from a few sources.
I don't understand the suspicion. Just what do you think they're up to? When Harry Weisfeld of VPI says that a new stylus every 500 hours is a good idea if you do as he suggests with respect to tracking force and anti-skate, it's certainly not because he has a new stylus to sell you; in fact, it seems a bit counterproductive for him because it means you'll wear your stylus faster following his advice.
I may be too trusting, but I never just assume someone is lying to me, whether its a biographer, a testing lab, a cartridge manufacturer, or a dealer who inspects my stylus. I trust their knowledge and experience to help me get the most out of this hobby.
I don't see any fear involved on the part of people providing the information; they're just reporting what they see. And there's certainly no fear on my part; I'm just trying to use my gear within its operating parameters and make reasonable choices about maintenance (just like I do with oil change intervals for my car).
Subjective experience does not count as proof to me, I think that's more in the realm of objective testing, but I agree that each hobbyist is at liberty to do whatever makes them comfortable and happy with respect to this or any other issue. I do think it's unfortunate, though, when aspersions/accusations are cast toward people or companies without proof of wrongdoing.
Lets see, in 1981 tuition at Harvard was just less than $7000 so a dealer won't send his kid to Harvard but will spend the equivalent to purchase a new Swiss made Wild microscope to "scare" local client's into buying Shure N91ed stylus for $27.50......get real.
We also bought a Keith Monks record cleaning machine for our local clients to use to clean their records for a small fee......Yes we created store traffic but any retailer will always to look for services above and beyond to create loyal customers....
The problem with listening for distortion is most people cannot hear even 3% distortion and speaker systems typically have distortion of 10% and up.....
We also bought a Keith Monks record cleaning machine for our local clients to use to clean their records for a small fee......Yes we created store traffic but any retailer will always to look for services above and beyond to create loyal customers....
The problem with listening for distortion is most people cannot hear even 3% distortion and speaker systems typically have distortion of 10% and up.....
DustyOldPile
Vinyl Goddess
So if a record is damaged to a point where distortion is measurable but the listener cannot hear it, is it a problem? It's not like we're preserving these things so that millions of years from now, alien beings from across the universe can groove to our funky vibes or anything.
Some of my albums survived College, and they still play wonderfully! I was just a silly girl then, didn't know anything about alignment, and beer parties and "other things" led to many altered state listening sessions (if you can call them that). I can't hear anything wrong with them now, in fact, armed with better gear, a cleaner lifestyle and lots more knowledge, they sound better than they ever have! Most of my collection is used stuff from thrifts, garage sales and the cheapy bins...all sounds great. I only have a handful of records that are below par, and they were that way when I got them.
Throughout my nearly lifelong love of hi-fi audio, I've witnessed fanatical behavior in the hobby. I've always trusted my ears and common sense. If someone wants to spend what to me is a ridiculous amount of money for audio cables spun from the gold plated hair of virgins and it makes them happy, so be it! But don't tell me that *I* need to, because I'm not buying it. There's a lot of snake oil in this hobby, and a lot of pumped up claims and crazy expenditures. Again, if it makes you happy, great.
I'll replace my stylus or cartridge when I think it's time. And I've been pretty good at that through 54 years of life. My ears tell me so, and my ears are all that matter.
Some of my albums survived College, and they still play wonderfully! I was just a silly girl then, didn't know anything about alignment, and beer parties and "other things" led to many altered state listening sessions (if you can call them that). I can't hear anything wrong with them now, in fact, armed with better gear, a cleaner lifestyle and lots more knowledge, they sound better than they ever have! Most of my collection is used stuff from thrifts, garage sales and the cheapy bins...all sounds great. I only have a handful of records that are below par, and they were that way when I got them.
Throughout my nearly lifelong love of hi-fi audio, I've witnessed fanatical behavior in the hobby. I've always trusted my ears and common sense. If someone wants to spend what to me is a ridiculous amount of money for audio cables spun from the gold plated hair of virgins and it makes them happy, so be it! But don't tell me that *I* need to, because I'm not buying it. There's a lot of snake oil in this hobby, and a lot of pumped up claims and crazy expenditures. Again, if it makes you happy, great.
I'll replace my stylus or cartridge when I think it's time. And I've been pretty good at that through 54 years of life. My ears tell me so, and my ears are all that matter.
@jrtrent -- I'm not saying it's conscious bias and it's not a question of "aspersions/accusations." I'm not saying that people are involved in "wrongdoing" or "lying." Please don't put words in my mouth.
The fact of the matter is that people who are "serious" about audio equipment and the audiophile experience -- this would include audio equipment manufacturers, designers, salespeople, retailers as well as people who are well-versed enough to write with some authority on audiophile matters -- are going to have a very different mindset and perspective about the wisdom of shelling out money on a regular basis on this gear than the casual listener who owns only one stylus. It's part of what they do for a living (or it's their obsession). They are going to think differently about this stuff than the casual user, because they do not really understand how the casual user sees this stuff. It's not a fault. It's just human nature.
Pretty much every day, I have customers who bring me an old turntable with an old stylus. I could very easily tell every one of those people that their stylus is old and worn out and it needs replacing, please add another $x to your repair bill, thank you very much. But if the stylus looks and sounds fine to me once the deck is tuned and aligned (I'm damned picky about sonics and I have a 200x 'scope), I leave it. Most of these customers are getting an old Japanese deck with a melted belt out of their attic to give to their college-aged kid so they can slap on some Zeppelin or some indie rock. They live in a different world than the people that make, sell and promote hi fi audio gear. They have a different value system with regards to the value of a brand new (and possibly expensive) stylus after x amount of hours. Can we at least agree on that?
The fact of the matter is that people who are "serious" about audio equipment and the audiophile experience -- this would include audio equipment manufacturers, designers, salespeople, retailers as well as people who are well-versed enough to write with some authority on audiophile matters -- are going to have a very different mindset and perspective about the wisdom of shelling out money on a regular basis on this gear than the casual listener who owns only one stylus. It's part of what they do for a living (or it's their obsession). They are going to think differently about this stuff than the casual user, because they do not really understand how the casual user sees this stuff. It's not a fault. It's just human nature.
Pretty much every day, I have customers who bring me an old turntable with an old stylus. I could very easily tell every one of those people that their stylus is old and worn out and it needs replacing, please add another $x to your repair bill, thank you very much. But if the stylus looks and sounds fine to me once the deck is tuned and aligned (I'm damned picky about sonics and I have a 200x 'scope), I leave it. Most of these customers are getting an old Japanese deck with a melted belt out of their attic to give to their college-aged kid so they can slap on some Zeppelin or some indie rock. They live in a different world than the people that make, sell and promote hi fi audio gear. They have a different value system with regards to the value of a brand new (and possibly expensive) stylus after x amount of hours. Can we at least agree on that?
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The tire companies promoted the idea of using a Lincoln penny to check tire thread depth, tire pressure I might have to buy a gauge or something......
Education whether you are a retail butcher, baker, or candlestick maker is all part of the process. The were correct procedures to set up tables decades ago, these learned skills will help set you apart from the crowd of ebay and Amazon hustlers.....Is not a new record now $20.00 and up.....a new AT elliptical cartridge is $30.00.
Education whether you are a retail butcher, baker, or candlestick maker is all part of the process. The were correct procedures to set up tables decades ago, these learned skills will help set you apart from the crowd of ebay and Amazon hustlers.....Is not a new record now $20.00 and up.....a new AT elliptical cartridge is $30.00.
All quite true.
I try to keep the cost of a turntable repair below the reasonable resale value of said turntable on the used market. On a cheaper deck, that $30 ends up being a significant percentage. And then there's the fact that something like an old M75 or M91 that came with the deck -- even with its old stylus -- is quite likely to provide a better sonic experience than a brand new AT92CD.
The other thing I'd say is that there are still billions of records selling for a buck or less at yard sales, thrift stores, or the bargain bins at record stores. There are people out there who want to have fun with vinyl without going broke. It can be done.
My apologies if I misunderstood you and DustyOldPile. My impressions came from words/phrases like biased information, misinformation, making a living off your fear, white papers that are a manufacturer touting its own cartridge, being suspicious of anything that comes from the audio industry, trust my ears more than I trust them, and from Dusty "the audio industry isn't exactly known for their honesty." And when I referred to aspersions/accusations, I had in mind more than what I've seen in just this thread--in many threads in this forum there seems to be a widespread distrust of anyone who works in the audio industry, as if their goal is to fleece you out of your money instead of offering honest sales and service. You yourself seem to offer honest service, and I have no reason to distrust anyone I've worked with over the past 40+ years in the hifi industry.
If you're saying that the dealers and manufacturers have a desire to help each customer avoid damaging his records, but that some customers don't mind if they risk shaving off a bit of vinyl to extend the hours of use from a stylus, then certainly I agree that there are two different value systems at work. My own goal is to be reasonably prudent about protecting my records without getting too obsessive over it, and rather than drive 3 hours round-trip every 100 hours of use to have my stylus inspected, plus pay a fee because I wouldn't feel right using their time on a stylus they didn't sell me, I just replace the thing after what several sources have suggested is a reasonable interval. It's possible I'm wasting a bit of stylus life, but that's okay--it fits in with the value I place on record safety.
@jrtrent -- yes, I'm saying most users wouldn't notice the difference "shaving off a bit of vinyl." They'd notice the extra $ being gone from their pockets.
People are weird about money. I play in a band and it's a joke amongst musicians that people will bitch about paying a $7 cover and then happily buy five drinks at $10 apiece.
People are weird about money. I play in a band and it's a joke amongst musicians that people will bitch about paying a $7 cover and then happily buy five drinks at $10 apiece.