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How important is the cartridge in the signal chain?

I don't think most would agree with you

If a stylus doesn't have a sound, why do we have different stylus shapes? Why do we have so many different cantilever materials?
Stylus dont have a sound the different cuts have different tracking abilities.
In a frequency test a AT95sh and an ml were basically identical in the outer grooves but in thr inner grooves the sh did a high frequency nose dive but the ml did not. The smaller minor radius of the ml tracks the inner grooves better with lower distortion and able to track those highs better.
A 0.2x0.7 has the same minor radius as the Shibata so on new undamaged vinyl they will sound exactly the same but on worn vinyl the Shibata will bridge the damage and sound better.
Stylus so not have sonic signature if all else is equal, they just have various tracking abilities.
Chris
 
Here is 2 different cartridges on to different turntables, which do you prefer if any?

I liked the second one, it felt like it had more midrange weight in the piano (or is it just louder?) and the violin had more body to the sound and more exciting articulation.
Unlike krautmaster I find the first excerpt smoother (and less dynamic/articulate).
How do we find out which is which?
 
Since buying a new Rega Planar 2 turntable with the stock Carbon cartridge recently, Despite being underwhelmed with its performance, I never got around to doing a comparison with my Trusty Pioneer Rondo 2000 (labeled PL 155A) I bought used. I had a Nagaoka MP11 (AKA MP110 now) cartridge and new belt installed and replaced the rubber mat with a Rubber/Cork mat.

After finally comparing the Rega table with its Carbon cartridge with my nearly 50 year old entry level Pioneer table with the Nagaoka MP11 cartridge I realize why I was underwhelmed with the Planar 2. That Nagaoka cartridge on the Pioneer has a Big 3 dimensional soundstage, Better Imaging and more Detail. Honestly, it's shocking how good Nagaoka's MP11 cartridge and its 110 replacement is.

So it seems to me the cartridge can make or break the turntables performance, regardless of the quality or price of the table.

Associated equipment: Tonar-Vinyline preamp, Bryston Integrated Amp, and Reference 3A Veena speakers.
 
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Stylus dont have a sound the different cuts have different tracking abilities.
In a frequency test a AT95sh and an ml were basically identical in the outer grooves but in thr inner grooves the sh did a high frequency nose dive but the ml did not. The smaller minor radius of the ml tracks the inner grooves better with lower distortion and able to track those highs better.
A 0.2x0.7 has the same minor radius as the Shibata so on new undamaged vinyl they will sound exactly the same but on worn vinyl the Shibata will bridge the damage and sound better.
Stylus so not have sonic signature if all else is equal, they just have various tracking abilities.
Chris
How can you say the high frequency response is different between styli and they sound the same? The 2 are a contradiction
 
I liked the second one, it felt like it had more midrange weight in the piano (or is it just louder?) and the violin had more body to the sound and more exciting articulation.
Unlike krautmaster I find the first excerpt smoother (and less dynamic/articulate).
How do we find out which is which?
It is in the file name… both file part have the exact same levels.
The frequency response differ 540 is brighter
It think 540 sound harsher and more upfront with less nuance and less body and more like an overexposed photo that reduce details. OC9 is more pleasant to listen too. Bothe gave MicroRidge stylus but OC9 has boron cantilever and is a MC.

Did anyone hear the difference between the Direct drive for 540 vs OC9 Belt drive?
Did anyone notice the 40 hz belt vibration on the OC9 track( belt need some talkum to exit pulley smoother) , and the 9hz torque ripple on the DD/540?
Did anyone notice the much lower feed back and microphony on the OC9/Michell Gyro And the superior SMEV arm in the OC9?

Sorry but too much work to switch cartridge on the Michell Gyro SME V AT OC9ML2 combo.. what I can to is switch cartridge/Headshell on the JVC DD with AT540ML
 
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How can you say the high frequency response is different between styli and they sound the same? The 2 are a contradiction
I did not say that at all.
What I was saying is in the outer grooves the Shibata and the micro ridge frequency plot is virtually identical. In the inner grooves the wider minor radius on the Shibata has increasing problems tracking and inner groove distortion increases and due to this the ability to track highs decreases.
I said all along the only difference is different cuts have different tracking abilities and Shibata rolling off highs in the inner grooves is this.
My point is people say a Shibata has better mids or other nonsense statements are incorrect. The different cut when all else is equal just have different tracking abilities.
Chris
 
It is in the file name… both file part have the exact same levels.
The frequency response differ 540 is brighter
It think 540 sound harsher and more upfront with less nuance and less body and more like an overexposed photo that reduce details. OC9 is more pleasant to listen too. Bothe gave MicroRidge stylus but OC9 has boron cantilever and is a MC.

Did anyone hear the difference between the Direct drive for 540 vs OC9 Belt drive?
Did anyone notice the 40 hz belt vibration on the OC9 track( belt need some talkum to exit pulley smoother) , and the 9hz torque ripple on the DD/540?
Did anyone notice the much lower feed back and microphony on the OC9/Michell Gyro And the superior SMEV arm in the OC9?

Sorry but too much work to switch cartridge on the Michell Gyro SME V AT OC9ML2 combo.. what I can to is switch cartridge/Headshell on the JVC DD with AT540ML
Nope, didn’t notice haha
 
Once you get past decent tracking $500 ish carts , they don’t get better!

More like "truly good $500 carts are not inferior to some >$20K cartridges"

Yes, I have some $ microline boron shaft carts but I also have three tables with conicals , my pioneer pl41 and pl50 rock conicals with oem styli that’s around 60 years old and I like them a lot too.

Which cartridges are you using on your PL-41 and -50?

The thing to remember is that a turntable package as a whole is basically a very vibration sensitive tracing instrument. And it depends on good engineering tolerances and finish in the moving parts most critical to this task. Platter bearings, motor vibration , plinth vibrations, construction materials, tonearm bearing friction or play...tonearm cable quality , electircal shielding etc...these are expensive thing to get right during manufacture..and the price reflects that. Basically the cartridge can only sound as good as the platform it is mounted to.

+10000

Having a number of turntables cheap to expensive , ranked by quality
, low to high
Sony PS-212
Denon 21F
Fisher MT-6330
Denon 51F
JVC QL-Y5F
Michell Gyro SE with SME V HR supply.

I would expect that a cheap cartridge like the AT-VM95E will sound markedly better on the Michell with SME V than on the Sony PS-212 with its stock arm.

My own experience, using cheap cartridges on cheap tonearms vs really good tonearms, guides me.

That being said, these turntables of yours don't have "cheap" or "mediocre" or "average" tonearms:
Denon 21F
Denon 51F
JVC QL-Y5F

Those 3 have desirable servo tonearms! the one on the JVC is ultra sophisticated!
 
I want to start by saying thank you for this great thread!

As to the original question…

On any given day, I will have a different ideas about this.

Today I am of the mind that the closer you get to the original signal source, the more important things become.

So, good recording, then good pressing, then the table/arm, then cartridge, phono pre/step up, preamp, speakers, then amplifier. (I admit to being somewhat cable/interconnect/power cord agnostic.)

I got to spend some time with Chris Feickert once and listen to some of his demos and ideas and he really convinced me about the importance of the table and arm and only then cartridge.

On days where my consciousness is somewhat more expanded, I will include headshell, platter composition, and record weight/clamp, too! Those are all beautiful toys that are easily changed in and out and satisfying my urge to fiddle!

Thanks again to everyone for a good thread!
 
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More like "truly good $500 carts are not inferior to some >$20K cartridges"



Which cartridges are you using on your PL-41 and -50?



+10000



I would expect that a cheap cartridge like the AT-VM95E will sound markedly better on the Michell with SME V than on the Sony PS-212 with its stock arm.

My own experience, using cheap cartridges on cheap tonearms vs really good tonearms, guides me.

That being said, these turntables of yours don't have "cheap" or "mediocre" or "average" tonearms:
Denon 21F
Denon 51F
JVC QL-Y5F

Those 3 have desirable servo tonearms! the one on the JVC is ultra sophisticated!
Great post!

Servo arm fan here as well. Professor Bizzt rendered up great mods to a couple of Sony Ps X800 tables and a Yamaha PX-2. Love those babies!
 
Just like the brakes on your car whose performance is mandated by the condition of your suspension and tires, so too is a TT a 'system'.
A combination of parts working in harmony regardless of cost.
Sixty years of experience has taught me that the sum of the parts, not necessarily the parts themselves, need to be dialed in per mfg.'s specs, and lastly this system must be placed in a correct location in the listening room, free of vibration & feedback as possible.

A properly dialed in inexpensive system will inevitably sound better than an expensive mismatched one.
 
That being said, these turntables of yours don't have "cheap" or "mediocre" or "average" tonearms:
Denon 21F
Denon 51F
JVC QL-Y5F

Those 3 have desirable servo tonearms! the one on the JVC is ultra sophisticated!
The JVC measures technically better than the Denons ( less resonances and peaks) while the Denon electronic damping is more effective than the electronic JVC arm. Overall the JVC is better and more convenient to use.
The SME V show minimum resonances and smoothest response of them all.

Now am a looking for a Sony with Biotracer arm. Too bad no one makes there electronic dampened arms anymore…they let the cartridge do it’s best
 
The JVC measures technically better than the Denons ( less resonances and peaks) while the Denon electronic damping is more effective than the electronic JVC arm. Overall the JVC is better and more convenient to use.
The SME V show minimum resonances and smoothest response of them all.

Now am a looking for a Sony with Biotracer arm. Too bad no one makes there electronic dampened arms anymore…they let the cartridge do it’s best

Good luck with getting a Sony!! I'm a Sony fanboy so of course I'd love to have one. I'm also a Victor (JVC) fan so I'd love to have a JVC with Electro-Dynamic tonearm. The guys at Victor did everything well, they truly knew eveyrthing about vinyl playback, turntables, etc.

But most of what electronic damping does, you can do it with silicone damping, with less hassle. So there's an alternative.

Also note that while the PS-X75 and abslolutely stellar PS-B80 were biotracers, the top of the line PS-X9, which is full of electronics inside, has a conventional pivoted tonearm, the magnificent Sony PUA-9. So even Sony perhaps didn't consider the biotracer essential to ultimate sound quality, if we "read between the lines".
 
I did not say that at all.
What I was saying is in the outer grooves the Shibata and the micro ridge frequency plot is virtually identical. In the inner grooves the wider minor radius on the Shibata has increasing problems tracking and inner groove distortion increases and due to this the ability to track highs decreases.
I said all along the only difference is different cuts have different tracking abilities and Shibata rolling off highs in the inner grooves is this.
My point is people say a Shibata has better mids or other nonsense statements are incorrect. The different cut when all else is equal just have different tracking abilities.
Chris
I don't understand how this is not about sound:
"and Shibata rolling off highs "
 
The simple answer goes back to the 1980s Analogue Front End Heirachy. Usually simplified as " Garbage in = Garbage out" .
Back then , the perceived wisdom was to allocate the largest portion of a front end budget to the quality of the turntable plinth , then the tonearm and ,lastly, the cartridge in that order. In 1980s money ratio that would translate to something like 50% plinth / 40% tonearm ? 10% cartridge.
This approach would often be employed until you could afford something as capable as a Linn LP12 , a top spec Thorens like the TD-531, Roksan Xerxes etc....and a high quality tonearm. Only then would you consider throwing real money at the cartridge.
The logic from an engineering perspective was : the first thing you want to eliminate or minimise before throwing money at a cartridge was any vibration NOT related to the stylus tracing the signal in the groove.
The cost vs performance ratio claimed by this approach, (and Linn seemed to preach it more than most) , was that the most disposable part of the front end ( ie the cartridge and stylus ) shouldn't exceed the quality of either the turntable plinth system or the quality of the toneaam it was attached to.
This was because any unwanted vibrations that these two preceeding components added to the stylus /record groove interface was distortion added to the musical signal.
The less distortion added , the better chance the cartridge had of retrieving a cleaner musical signal.

Imho opinion..it worked well as a cost effective way of getting the best front end set up you could on a limited budget until you could afford high end turntables.
The thing to remember is that a turntable package as a whole is basically a very vibration sensitive tracing instrument. And it depends on good engineering tolerances and finish in the moving parts most critical to this task. Platter bearings, motor vibration , plinth vibrations, construction materials, tonearm bearing friction or play...tonearm cable quality , electircal shielding etc...these are expensive thing to get right during manufacture..and the price reflects that. Basically the cartridge can only sound as good as the platform it is mounted to.
Most people have never listened to something like a cheap Audio Technica AT-95E or AT-110E cartridge from the 80s or even one of the cheaper Ortofon Ellipticals from that period once they were mounted on something in the same league of say a Linn Sondek or any good quality 3 point suspended plinth with an tonearm no less in quality that say a Rega RB-250 or RB-300 ( circa late 80s /early 90s spec).
Sometimes even a basic entry level budget cartridge can surprise you when the cartridge itself...is the cheapest ( and weakest ) link.

Another thing to consider..and this is probably even more important than either the turntable or cartridge is : You MUST align the cartridge to Null Points of a KNOWN geometry BASED solely on the ACTUAL mounting distance of the tonearm.
Whether its Stevenson, Loefgren A or B ( Baerwald ) geometry is better than using no geometry at all.
The *overhang method* is only a convenience shortcut. A good Protractor to ensure alignment is spot on eliminates the kind of groove tracing errors no upgrade can fix.
A good cartridge alignment can sometimes make the biggest improvement in sound once its spot on...and its completely free !
Very well said
 
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I’ve found I can put a higher end cartridge on a basic deck and have it sound better than a basic cartridge on a higher end deck.

For example I’m running a Dynavector 17D3 Karat on a Rega P3 to great effect. That same cartridge sounds more refined on my Nottingham Dais but the Dais is 10x the cost of the Rega and the improvement is not that dramatic.

I’ve probably at the point of diminishing returns with this setup. Many people would say I’ve far exceeded it since the cart cost as much as the arm/table.

Point is, don’t be afraid to put a good cartridge on a mid tier TT/Arm combo, as opposed to upgrading the table first.

And setup is more important than either the ‘table or the cart in any combination.
 
There is a very poor correlation between price and performance of turntables. Ther is some correlation between cartridge price and quality up to about 1000usd,,,,
 
Once you get past decent tracking $500 ish carts , they don’t get better!
All carts introduce their own distortions /colorations . Spend more and it’s really a matter of “ do you like this sound better than that sound?”
Yes, I have some $ microline boron shaft carts but I also have three tables with conicals , my pioneer pl41 and pl50 rock conicals with oem styli that’s around 60 years old and I like them a lot too.
Use your ears, not your wallet.

I wouldn't put any stock in that rubbish, of course they get better after 500 dollars, you think people who have invested more in their systems can't hear? That concept that wealthy people are fools and spend money on expensive stuff just to show off is crazy.

Your wallet won't like what your ears would hear, if you could hear good, and you had better tables, and more disposable income. We all have our priorities and there is nothing wrong with calling our limits out, but don't call out limits for others with more resources
 
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