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How much power is enough when going to a tube amp?

Two are under $500, the third is very likely the cheapest 300B amp on the market. Also two of the three are made by the same company (which doesn't offer a single product over $1,000), and all three are sold on Amazon. These are bottom of the barrel amps, that is the common factor that relates to performance/specs.

And they can all be brought close or closer to spec by changing passive components/design that add nothing to their manufacturing costs. It's not about them being "low spec", it's that they lie about those specs and simple don't care to even try to make a decent product with the parts in front of them.

I'm not sure why some people keep making excuses for this poor/lack of any engineering/testing and their false advertising. Maybe to some people $1000 or even $500 is nothing, but to many people, that is a lot of money to throw away on something that is falsely advertised and likely unusable for the intended purpose. Just because something is sold at a lower price point, doesn't give them a pass on massively (5-20X) inflating the published specs and lying about these objective, measurable properties. The A12 is advertised as being 6W at <1% THD. It actually makes 0.05W at 1%THD and flatlines at 3W@+10%.

There are several options at the $1000 or less price point where the seller doesn't lie about what they are. But because these other folks lie about what they are selling, it hurts legit manufacturers trying to sell products in this price range, and then people jump in defending that practice just because it's a lower price point product... A practice that harms the whole industry, especially a manufacturer from China trying to make a quality product.

And I think the country of manufacture does weigh in on these thing, as if this product was made in the US or in most European countries and this blatantly falsely advertised, they would get in trouble for doing this. In China, they have no worries of that happening. I saw this same thing with film cameras made in ex-soviet countries, they had no shame in selling unusable garbage, advertised to be something it wasn't, as they knew they wouldn't get in trouble doing it.
 
For the Triangles I agree with those who suggested a push pull EL34 amp to obtain acceptable performance, but would further suggest that to get the most of those speakers, a KT88/6550 amp is ideal.

An EL84 amp would sound good at moderate levels, but it is throwing away a lot of what the Boreas are capable of.

Keep in mind that 92dB at 2.83V is actually way less than 92dB per watt when the speaker impedance is approx 4 ohms.

Another alternative if budget is a concern, is to seek out a solid state amp with MOSFET output devices, so you can get some tube like sound but with some cojones behind it.
 
StepheK

I have followed and enjoyed your forum threads and youtube channel on the amps you mentioned.

There is quite a bit of variation in quality and specs for Chinese manufacturers. I do not have any experience with the amps you mentioned. Your assessment cannot be faulted on those amps. However, I own many amps from other Chinese manufacturers. I spent time researching before buying because of the perception you describe.

Bez (2), Dared (1), Mingda (9) and Yaqin (2) are the brands that I have bought and tested. These products all performed to published specs. Mingdas are the best and their specs are actually conservative. A Yaqin 300B SE and Mingda EL34 PP have been my daily listeners for many years.

If you are patient used amps from these brands show up on ebay, craigslist and the forum for very reasonable prices.

I think the OP will find that in the used market there are many opportunities below $1,000.

Steve
 
Quit guessing and find some one with a tube amp that you can put with your present speakers and try them.
If this is not possible then get a throw away SS amp at your target wattage and try it. A watt is a watt tube or transistor. You can usually get by with a smaller tube amp as clipping starts slowly as an SS amp will clip very suddenly and sound like crap much sooner than a tube amp. lowcost SS amps can be bought cheep at a thrift store.
 
I have a Jolida JD502 CRC amp, using 6550/KT88 tubes (60w/ch - 85w peak) and find its plenty of power for my Heath/Altec Valencias
(which have the Bass Enhancer that eats 10db), even when playing The Who, Stones, and other music that wants to be played louder.

Santa came a bit early this year , and running a new Jolida 3502 with EL84's driving small Klipsch 90db eff speakers...so much power ! seems effortless ... rated at 50wpc, but tube watts ... seems more dynamic and lifelike .. but I just got it so must go through the required break-in period .. only going to get better !
 
Santa came a bit early this year , and running a new Jolida 3502 with EL84's driving small Klipsch 90db eff speakers...so much power ! seems effortless ... rated at 50wpc, but tube watts ... seems more dynamic and lifelike .. but I just got it so must go through the required break-in period .. only going to get better !
Are you that has EL84s? I think it might be KT88s, which would fit much better with 50 watts per channel. Either way congrats and glad you're enjoying it.
 
I wonder what it would take to get 50 watts out of EL84's. Thinking 8 in push-pull-parallel ought to get pretty close. Not really sure why anyone would, but its an interesting thought experiment.
 
Number of watts really depends on the amount of area/space your filling with sound and the distance that you are from the speakers the speakers efficiency and the volume level that you are comfortable listening at...

More watts equals bigger transformers and bigger costs...
 
I have a Borea Triangle BR03 90db and I’m using one of those Chinese amp mentioned and it drives it quite well. Mind you I’m no audiophile but I do have some experience with other units. I think you’ll be able to use any tube amp of your choosing and will be fine.
 
I've been learning about loudness and speaker sensitivity and power levels. I find it very interesting. A pair of 105db speakers will be as loud as lawnmowers with one Watt of input. Twice as loud at 10 Watts. Four times as loud at 100 Watts. Eight times at 1000 Watts. I think I have that right, or close, but I also notice that "loudness" is subjective. Sound pressure is not as subjective. In any case, it would seem that speaker efficiency basically has a more powerful effect on loudness than power level. Generally. A 105db speaker is around twice as loud as an 89db speaker, at a given power level. Or something like that.
 
Yes, I meant 92 db. For my speakers.
All your comments make a lot of sense and have been helpful!
My guess is to try and stay at 20 wpc or higher which is a challenge ($$$$) to play it safe. I was considering the famous Dynaco s70 but I'll look into the Fisher and Scott ideas too. Should be a fun experience to see how it turns out!
I haven't had speakers that the ST70 or Fisher 400/500 could not push very well. You're on the right path to look for those. Also, there's a huge advantage of buying those over Chinese amps. Those classic amps will maintain and even increase their value over time where as those Chinese amps will drop 1/3 their value out of the box.
 
I wonder what it would take to get 50 watts out of EL84's. Thinking 8 in push-pull-parallel ought to get pretty close. Not really sure why anyone would, but its an interesting thought experiment.

It's been done by German company AudioValve... some people love the EL84 sound and want more.
 
taking a tube amp, and lowering the speaker impedance tilts the load lines up( towards vertical ). The usual commercial practice is to run the active part of the load above the static dissipation limit. The lower the load, and the higher power, the more time a 'side' is going to be above the dissipation limit. 'Side' defined as one phase on a PP output trans. The more the maker played the 'horsepower race' game the higher the B+ will be, the lower the idle dissipation will be and the faster the load is going to blow right past the dissipation limit for a significant amount of time.

In practice, it does not seem to hurt much, as the 'off' time it spends cut off allows it to cool enough. Just like AB transistor amps, higher power means higher heat... :)

'Frazzled' is of course a matter of degree.
cheers,
Douglas
 
I've been learning about loudness and speaker sensitivity and power levels. I find it very interesting. A pair of 105db speakers will be as loud as lawnmowers with one Watt of input. Twice as loud at 10 Watts. Four times as loud at 100 Watts. Eight times at 1000 Watts. I think I have that right, or close, but I also notice that "loudness" is subjective. Sound pressure is not as subjective. In any case, it would seem that speaker efficiency basically has a more powerful effect on loudness than power level. Generally. A 105db speaker is around twice as loud as an 89db speaker, at a given power level. Or something like that.

A 10dB increase is perceived as about twice as loud, and 10dB can come from 10dB increase in sensitivity or 10x more power (also a 10dB increase).

That said, when you start to dump appreciable power into a speaker you get some degree of power compression. This varies based on the characteristics of the drivers. What it means, basically, is as the voice coil of the driver gets hotter and hotter as you dump in more and more power, the resistance of the voice coil increases which reduces the effective power of the amp.
 
A 10dB increase is perceived as about twice as loud, and 10dB can come from 10dB increase in sensitivity or 10x more power (also a 10dB increase).

That said, when you start to dump appreciable power into a speaker you get some degree of power compression. This varies based on the characteristics of the drivers. What it means, basically, is as the voice coil of the driver gets hotter and hotter as you dump in more and more power, the resistance of the voice coil increases which reduces the effective power of the amp.

Soooo...we discover quite quickly when dealing with low efficiency speakers that doubling the amp's output power is not very effective. IFF you are running a 50W amp and decide it needs to be bigger, the jump to 500W is right about where the new amp needs to be. If said amp is a tube amp, going to 500W is going to present some issues if you're going to stay with tubes.
cheers,
Douglas
 
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