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How necessary is a separate phono preamp?

T

thebigbeat90

New Member
Just recently acquired a Cambridge Audio AXR85 integrated receiver to pair with my p3. Wondering how much difference a separate phono would make as opposed to the one built in the Cambridge? I'm looking at something not too expensive like the Schiit mani 2
 
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It depends on a couple of things. First, how good is the phono stage in your integrated? I can't answer that for the integrated you have, but I'm sure someone with experience will chime in. I have two preamps with very nice phono sections, so I've never felt the need for a stand-alone. Second, what kind of cartridge are you using? Moving Coil carts are more likely to require a better phono stage - partly because of their lower output, and partly because of loading preferences, where a better phono stage will generally give you more options so you have a better chance of giving the cart what it's looking for. Some integrateds will have an MC setting, which will give them the ability to accept the level of an MC cartridge, but loading options may be limited. A quick search tells me yours only has a Moving Magnet phono input, so if you want to run a (low output) moving coil, you'll need an external phono preamp.
 
If you're using a ceramic cartridge, it's unnecessary. However, any kind of magnetic cartridge will require a signal boost in order to be used with line level inputs unless your integrated has a dedicated phono stage, and even then (as noted above) SQ will depend on whether your cartridge is MM or MMC.
 
Lot of variables...

#1 Your personal taste/standard

#2 How good is the Cartridge

#3 How good is the MM input

#4 Quality of your overall system

#5 Quality of your LPs

You get the point? It is up to you. But the higher one goes up the line on all 5 of those variables the more the need for an external Phono Pre
 
What kind of turntable and cartridge are you currently using? Speakers? As previous comments...a lot of variables at play. You might be better off putting money elsewhere in order to really hear a difference.
 
I’d say for me, Adjustability
I use a LOMC and The OHM setting on the amp was not what I wanted
A good outboard pre amp gives flexibility
There are some nice budget friendly units out there
 
If you're using a moving magnet type cartridge, then you probably don't need a separate preamp. Some amps have the ability to match with moving coil cartilages too. I started with a moving magnet cartridge and just because I was curious got a phono preamp and with my old Marantz receiver, I noticed a definite improvement and even more improvement when I ungraded to a better phono preamp. I'm looking at yet another upgrade to better match the current cartridge that I'm using (a moving coil thing). None of these phono preamps that I have or the one that I'm looking at were very expensive either and the attraction of using one is that it can be a fairly cost effective upgrade that doesn't require you to buy a whole other amp (receiver, integrated or preamp, that is). It's a nice way to upgrade the sound you get on the cheap... though one can of course spend a LOT of money on these things, just like with any other audio component. There can be very good price/value ratio with these things...

I'm looking at getting a Schiit Mani 2 as well. From what I've heard, it may be one of those rare things that sounds far better than what it costs. I haven't heard of better for the money.
 
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IMO an onboard phono stage won't even begin to reveal what your P3 can do. Same for inexpensive separate amps.
A phono stage is just as important as your TT or cart and if you really want to make your system sing you'll want a good stage.
Flavor of the month is Darlington Labs, three different models at different price points. Do a search.
Mani and Zen are okay and you'll hear an improvement (I had a Cambridge Duo) but they are only adequate at best. You won't really hear what your P3 is capable of. When I got rid of the Duo I was totally blown away and couldn't believe what I had been missing.
 
Up until 3 or 4 years ago I didn't think it was necessary. But when I moved on to a newer pre-amp I sort of missed the previous pre-amps phono stage. After all I had lived with it for 30 years. Well I decided to buy a phono pre-amp either MC, or MM to line pre-amp. The old sound returned, plus there were digital out puts to feed the separate HT system and another output to feed a digital recorder. So I am a very happy listener again. Plus I can use MC now with out those problemativ SUT's so folks like and I detest.
But thats another story.
 
As another said just how great the phono stage is in your current setup will dictate just how much you'll need to spend to improve on it. Also like stated I also have two preamps with outstanding phono stages accepting both MC/MM with gain and loading options, this is not usually the case with integrated amps or receivers.

I also have integrated amps with fine phono stages that aren't to hard to beat really. Don't take that the wrong way, most would be happy with the built in phono pre, but they offer no adjustability and they aren't dedicated units.
 
The newer integrateds like your Cambridge Audio probably has a pretty decent phono stage.

Awhile ago I tried the Bellari VP129 tube phono amp with a Mullard tube. I tried it with all kinds of stuff. It sounded like crap.
My dedicated headphone system had an inexpensive Pro-ject Phono Box (MM/MC) through a Cary Audio SLP 50B preamp. It sounded great or rather I couldn't hear it. What I heard was just pure clean music. The only time I could discern a minuscule difference is when I rolled tubes.

Give the Cambridge a good listen with different inputs and speakers if possible. A good cartridge and good speakers would be higher on my list of stuff to get.

Good luck.
 
rothwellaudio said:
How long is a piece of string? :dunno:
If you bought a very good phonostage and the rest of your equipment is very revealing you would probably hear an improvement. If you buy a cheap phonostage you may not notice much (any?) difference at all.
Click to expand...

I bought a Project Phonobox way back when I first stumbled upon a LOMC cartridge and my NAD 3020 only had your basic MM phonostage in it. The Project sounded very dull as a MM preamp, and was hissy as a LOMC preamp (and not very good anyways). The phono stage in the NAD was loads better.

Take Rothwell’s advice to heart, he is an actual circuit designer. All phono preamps are not created equal, you get what you pay for, etc.
 
It just all depends on how serious you are about playing records. If it's your main source, or even a close second for serious listening, then I would say it's important. I have heard a few nice sounding phono stages in integrated amps and receivers, but you can always find something better in a stand alone.
My current phono preamp is tube based and I had it added to my tube preamp when I ordered it to have built. I really like it. I had an Ear clone that my son has now. I like it also, but just preferred the one that came with my preamp.
 
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thebigbeat90 said:
Wondering how much difference a separate phono would make as opposed to the one built in the Cambridge? I'm looking at something not too expensive like the Schiit mani 2
Click to expand...
Only you can make that determination. The Mani offers more flexibility with the ability to set gain, load resistance and capacitance to match your cartridge.

Fortunately, the Mani offers a 15 day return policy.

edit: It is also based on the current darling op amp, the OPA1612. If you were an electronics hobbyist, you could build your own using Wyn Palmer’s design which is similarly based. I enjoyed building Dynaco kits when I was a teen.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...wyn-phono-line-warp-headphone-pre-amp.946223/
 
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I would set up your gear using the Cambridge MM phono input and listen for a week or two. How does it sound to you at that point? It'll probably sound very good, assuming everything is set up properly. Could it sound better, or at least different? Sure, but always remember that different doesn't automatically equal better.

If you decide to go external phono pre, you'll gain flexibility for the future, different and possibly better sound, and (with some models) more adjustability for cartridges. Then it becomes a matter of settling at a level that you're happy with. I settled on the Cambridge Duo a couple years ago and have not wanted for more, even though it's probably the 'least' compared to my other equipment in the chain, but I'm also a MM cartridge guy and tend to avoid spending too lavishly on my HiFi gear. I don't sense that I'm missing anything with the Duo that I care to spend many hundreds (or more) to acquire.

One thing is for certain: if you spend goodly amounts of time on forums like this, the chances you'll fall into the gear-churn rabbit hole will increase greatly. A big part of the hobby for many of us is the fascination with gear and an often unrequited search for better sound without going bankrupt. It's as predictable as the sun that I settle and within a few months I'm engaging more heavily on AK, deciding to buy a new this or a vintage that, just to scratch the itch at this point.
 
E-Stat said:
Only you can make that determination. The Mani offers more flexibility with the ability to set gain, load resistance and capacitance to match your cartridge.

Fortunately, the Mani offers a 15 day return policy.

edit: It is also based on the current darling op amp, the OPA1612. If you were an electronics hobbyist, you could build your own using Wyn Palmer’s design which is similarly based. I enjoyed building Dynaco kits when I was a teen.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...wyn-phono-line-warp-headphone-pre-amp.946223/
Click to expand...
Actually- the preferred opamp is the AD797, then the LT1115, but the OPA1612 is close. They are only used for the input 75us TC stage and others are used for various other purposes.
 
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