Huge free upgrade in sound quality

[REDone]

I think 5 is better than 4

Here is a link to my Mat Test


Experiment Test between

my Standard Rubber Mat

home made Mat with 4 dots of cork inner 4 dots of cork outer (triangular dots as its easier to cut)

Home made 4” cork inner mat (label size) with 5 cork dots outer

The differences in Mat thickness between Cork & Rubber were negligible 0.03 mm

Presentation is certainly different between them

I think different decks & arms & carts would give different results so its up to the listener to get the optimum for their particular system

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=b2a2ad8fd732c20b6b21be4093fab7ac7dcd5030788057d9e04f31aacf568dab

Track was Taken from Cleo Laine & John Williams
Best Friends 1976 “He’s so Beautiful” (last track side 2) Just vocals & guitar.

 

[marc mc]

The platterless idea and the point variants achieve different levels of success based on a few factors. It is also misunderstood. Ed found the energy return from the platter below to be the culprit, this echo smeared and caused interaction with the stylus. It has nothing to do with decoupling the record from the mechanics of the TT. He found the record was easily able to handle the weight of the arm(which everyone thinks is a big problem). He also felt that it was best to let the resonance disapate out into the air like ripples in a pond and any interactions would return the vibrations back to the stylus.

In a couple of posts in this thread I see the old objections are still alive and well and that does not surprise me. The platterless idea does work and the pods systems do as well. It does require a decent arm and cartridge. Cheap combos reveal their weeknesses when not aided by damping the record itself while better stuff really shines. Its pointless just saying "I tried it and it didn't work" without mentioning the combo tried.

Here is a shot of where my Thorens 318 tweaks ended up, I use it on my garage system. I have an Alphason arm and Audioquest cart on it now. I use a weight that presses down on a rubber donut that makes the whole record very stiff, and it crushes my Rega P3. The bottom picture is a shot of Ed's table from the 80's a friend owned one for a while and said it was great but the arm held it back. Turntables died around that time and Ed moved on to make one of the best Dac's ever. If he had stayed with vinyl I wonder where his early steps would have taken him?

I plan on making a full on DIY table later this winter with what I have learned to this point. The massive OB's early this summer and the Watson Labs rebuild late this summer were a ton of fun but it also left me with the desire to take a break. I made this table in between speaker projects and though the design included a base, I have still not actually made it. My interest has moved back indoors to my main system, tubes and electrostatics.

marc mc

 

[davidk5]

Very interseting thread & results , thanks for all this info .

 

[Susurus]

Some Transcriptors had 5, some had 6 of the support disks.

Wouldn't the most extreme form of coupling the vinyl to the platter be a vacuum type like the Sota? Any experience there? Reverse it and ride on an air cushion.

 

[marc mc]

Some Transcriptors had 5, some had 6 of the support disks.

Wouldn't the most extreme form of coupling the vinyl to the platter be a vacuum type like the Sota? Any experience there? Reverse it and ride on an air cushion.

I have a friend that owns a Sota Star Sapphire. They are good tables. Their are actually many ways that work and often several contibuting factors to a tables success. I guess for me I enjoy seeing people try different things. The average audiophile thinks designers are all brilliant and whatever they decided to us for a mat or tweeter or whatever was the result of painstaking research and testing. IME they chose felt because it was cheap and it wouldn't scratch the underside of the record, and that was about it. Once the aftermarket mats started popping up Ivor did what he has always done. Plugged his ears dug deeper and hunkered down, and all the Linnies did the same. In fact in those days all the camps spent most of thier time doing that.

I did always find it strange that very few would even try the platterless idea. And I mean very few. They would argue against it for hours but never try it. Like I said it was anti establishment in those days, they were selling sorbothane mats to everyone at $80 a pop. And like it or not the pionners of audio had sound quality at the top of their priority list. For the boomers it was all about the cash.

marc mc

 

[REDone]

Marc MC - I tried removing the outer platter on the Thorens 160 similar to your photo. It then needed a weight to keep the record level & stable but I wasn't that impressed vocals were not stable but there was an overall lift in the sound.

perhaps it needed a clamp or better weight

 

[marc mc]

Marc MC - I tried removing the outer platter on the Thorens 160 similar to your photo. It then needed a weight to keep the record level & stable but I wasn't that impressed vocals were not stable but there was an overall lift in the sound.

perhaps it needed a clamp or better weight

What is the TT sitting on? What cartridge are you using? The arm becomes crucial and the original Thorens arm makes more noise than a kindergarten class. And your right about the weight. You still need the mass from the platter replaced. I had a piece of steel made fro the inside of the hub, which you can see in the picture.

marc mc

 

[REDone]

It is a straight original 160 MK1 with TP16 arm - a cork mat below the LP

The TT sits on a rack but would be better on a wall shelf

Cart at moment is a Shure 75 ED

The outer platter ring weighs heck of a lot - I don't see that a tiny weight would compensate its mass unless made from kryptonite though I have yet to weigh it.

 

[SkyLounger]

I went for Marc MC's cork discs tweak on my Systemdek IIX w/glass platter...

Initial thought? OMG :yes::tresbon:

I'll have to do some more listening tonight, but I'm guessing I'll be impressed all the way...

Huge cheap tweak you say?

 

[marc mc]

I went for Marc MC's cork discs tweak on my Systemdek IIX w/glass platter...

Initial thought? OMG :yes::tresbon:

I'll have to do some more listening tonight, but I'm guessing I'll be impressed all the way...

Huge cheap tweak you say?

Great table. Probably the most overlooked and underrated tables of all time. The suspesion is excellent and the Profile arm would respond well to platterless. I had a friend that did several tweaks on that table 20 years ago and they all worked. You should notice less surface noise and greater musicality. The increased clairty is often mistaken for thinness. But it's really because its cleaner, kinda like some who mistake boom for bass on speakers.

marc mc

 

[marc mc]

It is a straight original 160 MK1 with TP16 arm - a cork mat below the LP

The TT sits on a rack but would be better on a wall shelf

Cart at moment is a Shure 75 ED

The outer platter ring weighs heck of a lot - I don't see that a tiny weight would compensate its mass unless made from kryptonite though I have yet to weigh it.

Several points, The TP 16 would hate platterless, The rack that Thorens sit on is half the story IMO. They are very sesative to loose or heavy unstable stands (I have the Sound Organisation TT stand that they love)

The outer ring weighs 6lb's the ring I had made was just under that but I put a weight on for the suspension. The table in the picture is not sprung so I now use the weight just for flywheel effect. But I buggered the bearing trying to change something. So my real DIY project will have to happen for sure now.:thmbsp:

marc mc

 

[SkyLounger]

You should notice less surface noise and greater musicality. The increased clairty is often mistaken for thinness. But it's really because its cleaner, kinda like some who mistake boom for bass on speakers.

marc mc

It is indeed the single most, unexpensive and efficient tweak I've come across since I'm into audio... Thanks a lot for the idea! Of course it all makes sense now when looking at pictures of the Transcriptor line of TTs and also the Audio Linear line...

Anyway, I think you just saved me a couple hundred bucks, I wanted to get an acrylic platter for my IIX, but the glass is so much prettier, and now sounds even better than before.

Also, I think it will take care of a lot of the static and dust problem.

 

[gusten]

A very good thread, it made me finally more seriously test the dot solution.
After testing different mtrls and patterns, I ended up with a design like this:
first a normal rubber mat, upon that a thin cork mat and on that three dots of hard pressed wool.(the same dots that normally are used under furniture with one adhesive side)

I came to the conclusion that three dots will secure contact to the record, a larger number of dots will, in principal, have the same problems with contact as a whole mat.

I am now testing this for a longer period of time, and I will also do some recordings of test signals to compare with a normal mat.

What I can say so far is that the improvement in sound is astonishing, it is so much clearer and more musical than before. I have never experienced such effortless transients and clarity till now.

The only thing is that the bass is on some records a little weaker than before, but at the same time I feel it´s more wright.

So conclusions so far, amazingly good.
gusten

 

[REDone]

I'm experimenting with 5 dots on another deck this one is the TD160

The difference is more immediately noticeable than on my other deck & quite pleasant.

Nothing really new with what we are doing though. Its worth taking a look at older designs on for example Sony & Yamaha especially their higher end models.

Mat design varies from annular rings to spaced dots to radial strips.

 

[Brett a]

I thought to myself "hey, I have some dots of various materials lying around, what could it harm?

I decided to play around with this a little last night too.

I have a glass platter'd Rega Planar 2. I had a few clear stick-on gummy bumper-feet in my junk drawer and thought I'd give them a try.

Well, waddaya know? The presentation got less stuffy and more 3-dimensional. Worth further investigation. I'm going to maybe pick up a variety of dots next time I'm at a hardware store.

The cool thing about doing this with a Rega Glass platter, is that if I am smart about where i stick the dots, I can always just flip the platter over and go back to the felt mat.

Thanks for the thread

:thmbsp:

 

[jgordon]

My pleasure. I'm happy to be able to contribute some ideas to a board that's given me so much.

Well, waddaya know? The presentation got less stuffy and more 3-dimensional. Worth further investigation. I'm going to maybe pick up a variety of dots next time I'm at a hardware store.

Thanks for the thread

:thmbsp:

I've moved away from the rubber for the moment (I think the cork sounds a little better (although hard to discern), and fewer concerns about leaching onto the records), and I took the "nature abhors an even number" argument to heart. My current setup is as follows, with the smaller cork pieces in a pentagonal pattern.

I'm also going back and forth on the addition of a three-pointed pattern on the inner platter, being careful not to align any of the three dots with the pentagon on the outer ring. I haven't stuck them to the platter, still experimenting.

I also like the idea that gusten put forth, about providing some material between the record and the platter, without contact. I can understand that the hard aluminum (or glass) platter would reflect sound, and it would be interesting to have an ultra-thin sound dampener stuck to the platter (or in his case, rubber and cork) above which the disc would be suspended.


I think I've used about $1.29 worth of my $6.50 investment, had several good evenings of tweaking and listening, and have improved the sound quality and overall experience immeasurably. I'm actually hearing lyrics that I've nodded and smiled at without understandin for years. And the dimensionality to the music is seriously magical.

So, $1.29 well spent.

 

[marc mc]

I would love to see the look on Ivors face if he saw that. But really it does my heart good to see the tweakers are willing to give a simple idea a try. I shared it with some heavy weight audiphiles back in the day and got nothing but blank looks.

jgordon, keep your eyes open for the Sound Organisation stand. It was made for the LP12 and to this day with a suspended table it blows any tweak out of the water.

REDone, glad to see you noticed the older tables used a form of platterless. Few bother to notice.

Brett, Your right the thinness is a lack of grunge.

At some point I hope a couple of you toss the outer ring altogether. Thats when it gets really good. But regardless I wanted to say that after all these years I'm grinning from ear to ear.:thmbsp:

marc mc

 

[REDone]

I'm also going back and forth on the addition of a three-pointed pattern on the inner platter, being careful not to align any of the three dots with the pentagon on the outer ring. I haven't stuck them to the platter, still experimenting..

I tried that last night but then found the record was lifted by the inner dots & didn't touch the outer ones - maybe a bowed lp but the outer dots only worked better.

 

[gusten]

Update: Even though I´m very pleased with the sound when using three dots, I found it was, for flexible records, maybe too little support.

I saw, when looking at test signals, that there was some resonances at low frequencies I couldn´t find with a whole mat.

So I´m now using five (5) dots, better support and still similar good sound.

I have also the same experience, that noted by others, regarding resolution. I understand now some lyrics I have never been able to before.

gusten

 

[ZebraBlvd]

Very interesting thread about spot mats. Glad to read that the general consensus is a good one. I'll be using a spot mat on a Empire 208 project that I have in the works. But, I'll be using just a few more cork spots than has been discussed here. The good thing about the spot mat tweak is that if you don't like them they are reversible. I'm going to use a pattern similar to the one in the picture below. Which BTW was stolen from a Gentleman's sight that owns this really nice modified 208.