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Hybrid Integrated Amps without Tone Adjustments??

T

thattreeguy

New Member
It's time for an upgrade (with an audio monkey on my back it seems its ALWAYS time for an upgrade...turntables, speakers, amps...no wonder I'm broke but I digress...) I've been looking at 2 different hybrid integrated amps; the Rogue Audio Sphinx V2 and the Croft Phono Integrated. Now this isn't a post asking which is better (sound quality can be so subjective wouldn't you agree?) or which should I purchase...although if anyone who's heard both has any insight in how they differ sonically it would not go unappreciated since I have no way of auditioning either.

Ok I'll get to my point. I noticed on both amps the absence of any type of tone adjustments. I've never cared for EQ's, but I've always felt the treble and bass knobs were an integral part of the whole music-stereo experience. I am bewildered by this inability to adjust the tone. Am I missing something? Is it because of the tubes? Are they just tonally perfect (lol anything perfect)? Is some sort of pre-amp or seperate thingamajig supposed to take care of this? I thought the whole idea behind an integrated amp was no seperates all in one box. Im sure my confusion is apparent. What does one do with either of these amps when they want to take a little edge off the top end or feel that just a little more low end is in order for this song, etc....?

Thank you for reading my bloated post (hey its sunday) & any insight in to this tonal conundrum would be helpful in my current quest for sonic bliss.
 
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I have Cronus Magnum and Sphinx V1. Neither have tone controls.
Now my opinion. IF you have flexability to adjust speaker locations. Try different speaker stand heights, distance from walls and corners, sitting position. Some tone change is possible. Also tube rolling to lesser effect, can change tone.
But, if you can't do above, tone controls may be advisable. Or, if you have a difficult room. If your a heavy loudness switch or tone control user, you may miss them.
No tone controls isn't for everyone.

Edit: Missed it before, I read now. you want to take edge off treble or add bass for particular songs! Why are you considering amps without tone controls? Or, just a ritorical question?
 
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The current line of thinking among "audiophiles" is that tone controls degrade the overall sound, Of course, this presumes that we all have perfect recordings, perfect equipment, perfect speakers, perfect rooms, perfect ears, and to alter the recording in any way constitutes blasphemy.

Me? I say it's my steak. If I want salt and pepper on it, I'm goin' for it.
 
Thanks for the responses.

Definitely not a ritorical question. I have been dreaming of a hybrid integrated for over a year (Im too poor for impulse buys) and the Sphinx and Croft seem like the best choices considering my obsession with vinyl and turntables and my limited budget. I didnt realize there was no way to adjust the tone so now Im really scratching my head. I thought everyone (including audiophiles even!) who listened to music wanted to adjust tone (basic treble & bass) at some point. Who knew?...not me.

Does anyone out there know of a quality hybrid integrated amp with an excellent phono stage and treble/bass controls priced under $2000? Am I a dreamer? Maybe vintage is my best bet? Damn I thought I had this figured out. Who knows I might prefer an amp w/o tone controls...never had one but this would be a large chunk of change for me to find out.

???
 
the skipper said:
The current line of thinking among "audiophiles" is that tone controls degrade the overall sound, Of course, this presumes that we all have perfect recordings, perfect equipment, perfect speakers, perfect rooms, perfect ears, and to alter the recording in any way constitutes blasphemy.

Me? I say it's my steak. If I want salt and pepper on it, I'm goin' for it.
Click to expand...

From what I've been reading Emotiva's basX line stands pretty tall next to to higher end gear at a fraction of the price. TT inputs, a better than decent DAC, and digital inputs. Bass, treble and balance controls. I'm a whisper away from ordering the PT-100 pre. In my space, if I'm sitting off to the side doing something I'm certainly not too proud to temporarily adjust a balance control. I wish my life was so simple I could do all my listening sitting in the "sweet spot" doing nothing but listening. I think the 50wpc integrated is the T-100.
 
Hello, i'm using a Xindak XA6800 integrated amp which is exactly the same thing as what you are looking at - a hybrid integrated without any tone controls (no balance pot either).

http://www.xindak.com/en-us/product_detail_info.aspx?ProductID=427

I was a bit worried as well about having no tone adjustment options but now i really don't feel i need them - usually everything just sounds 'right'. I listen to vinyl only & always try to get decent pressings so it rarely happen that something doesn't sound good, if theres a problem i usually conclude that i have to upgrade my copy of this album...

Few weeks ago my Xindak suffered a liquid spill so had to put it aside for a while. Using my late 90s Technics integrated (with tone controls) i found out that the best thing would be to leave it flat all the time. Also recently acquired a vintage Luxman receiver which i'm using now, after playing around with the tone controls & loudness i decided that the best & most balanced listening experience is again, flat.

Hope this might be helpful in some way...hope you'll enjoy whichever unit you'll choose !
 

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thattreeguy said:
Oh yeah I forgot to ask...what is "tube rolling"? Im assuming its not a joint!
Click to expand...
"Tube rolling" means changing the tubes (aka valves) -- to those from a different manufacturer, age, and/or (sometimes) even type -- in an amplifier that uses tubes/valves in order to change the sound.
 
Ive noticed both my Caver C-1 pre and Rotel integrated amp sound noticeably better with the tone controls defeated. Solution? run a simple 10 band eq between the pre and amp ...lol Bob
 
thattreeguy said:
Thanks for conses.

Definitely not a ritorical question. I have been dreaming of a hybrid integrated for over a year (Im too poor for impulse buys) and the Sphinx and Croft seem like the best choices considering my obsession with vinyl and turntables and my limited budget. I didnt realize there was no way to adjust the tone so now Im really scratching my head. I thought everyone (including audiophiles even!) who listened to music wanted to adjust tone (basic treble & bass) at some point. Who knew?...not me.

Does anyone out there know of a quality hybrid integrated amp with an excellent phono stage and treble/bass controls priced under $2000? Am I a dreamer? Maybe vintage is my best bet? Damn I thought I had this figured out. Who knows I might prefer an amp w/o tone controls...never had one but this would be a large chunk of change for me to find out.

???
Click to expand...

My Sphinx V1 sounds nice to my ears. I use the phono, which is competent. It handles 8 or 4 ohm speakers. 100 wpc and 200 wpc depending on load. Being a Class D power section, it creates very little heat.
 
I don't need tone controls. Speaker positioning and the use of subwoofers allow me to get what I want. The rest of my filtering is done by my brain.

Once I become acclimated to my system in my room, then I can throw all the Fletcher-Munson concerns out the window. Loudness compensation sounds artificial to me. I'm no purist. I simply think that my hearing is natural and I compensate the same way one hears the natural world. Bass not as pronounced at low volumes? Yep, that's normal. Midrange more pronounced at low level? I notice sounds that stood out less at higher volumes from a slightly different perspective. My amp does have tone controls, but I have never used them. Not even once, so they are like tits on a bull for me.

Don't need 'em, don't use 'em, don't miss 'em. Happens to a lot of enthusiasts, for whatever reason. You want 'em? Then buy an amp that has them, but if you do buy one without, you may find that you never needed them in the first place. Feel strongly that EQing is needed? Good for you - your opinion is just as valid as my own. Buy an amp that has the type you want, or add what you think best, whether a graphic, parametric or active crossover. There is no one-and-only correct approach here.
 
lol! "tits on a bull"? I haven't heard THAT one in awhile! It was one of my Dad's favorites. When I whip it out nowadays I usually need to explain it. An old coworker of mine had his own take..."tits on a boar hog".

Also I kind of misspoke earlier in this thread. The Emotiva series I mentioned are definitely not hybrid.
 
I gave up on linear octave equalizers when I moved to an ARC SP-3 preamp in 1979. I haven't had tone controls since I moved to an ARC SP-9 preamp in 1988. I don't miss either.

With that said; I use REW a DSP and a calibrated microphone to equalize my in room response. The DSP is used in a set and forget mode.

OTOH: I really liked the continuously variable loudness control on the SP-3. IMO that type is much more effective and "accurate" than a simple loudness switch. A variable loudness control is referenced to the levels one actually uses. You set the volume to the loudest you plan on using and lower the volume using the loudness control. This provides compensation based on listening levels one actually uses.

A standard loudness switch is usually connected to a 50% loudness tap on the volume control. This means that as one approaches a 50% volume level the loudness compensation is reduced. There is usually little to no compensation past that 50% point. Unfortunately that 50% point doesn't take into account the room, the speakers or the levels one uses.

BTW: I don't care what others do or use. I'm merely reporting on what I've found to work the best for me.
 
If I felt the need I'd use a MiniDSP 2x4HD to EQ my room. As is I think it sounds pretty damn good without any EQ.

If you must have EQ, maybe take a look at a Vincent SV237 or 236?
 
TomBig58 said:
From what I've been reading Emotiva's basX line stands pretty tall next to to higher end gear at a fraction of the price. TT inputs, a better than decent DAC, and digital inputs. Bass, treble and balance controls. I'm a whisper away from ordering the PT-100 pre. In my space, if I'm sitting off to the side doing something I'm certainly not too proud to temporarily adjust a balance control. I wish my life was so simple I could do all my listening sitting in the "sweet spot" doing nothing but listening. I think the 50wpc integrated is the T-100.
Click to expand...

i have no prob with bass/treble controls
i do have a couple subs hooked up

i bought the emotiva pt 100 a year ago [ not cheap in canada, after exchange,customs and shipping] i luv it
and due to another thread i checked the bass treble settings this weekend, they are at 0 ..... i have never used them on the emotiva , not that i wouldnt, just never needed to
 
I owned this gorgeous tube hybrid amp for a few months but it sounded like a solid state amp. I owned a Yaqin hybrid as well but didn't keep it very long. You'd be better off going all tube or just adding a nice tube preamp. Hybrids offer little flexibility and are too much of a compromise to give the best of both worlds.

center
 
orsen said:
i have no prob with bass/treble controls
i do have a couple subs hooked up

i bought the emotiva pt 100 a year ago [ not cheap in canada, after exchange,customs and shipping] i luv it
and due to another thread i checked the bass treble settings this weekend, they are at 0 ..... i have never used them on the emotiva , not that i wouldnt, just never needed to
Click to expand...

Hey Orsen. Do you use the Yaquin between the TT and pre or for a CD player? For either is it a big difference than without it? Do you like the phono stage of the PT-100 without the buffer?

I have Kef 105's that I thought could take more power than my MCS 3125 receiver (115wpc but it might be underperforming a bit) or an NAD pre with 100wpc Adcom could give them. I experimented with a QSC GX3 pro amp (300wpc@8ohms) and sure it was loud but sounded like crap. Are you running both sets of KEFs through the M-70? That Yammie is on my wish list. Ironically I also have a Velodyne too, an older CHT-10 but it's doing HT duty.

Sorry for all the questions but the setup I'm pushing towards is similar to what you've already got. Thanks in advance.

.
 
Hey the OP here. Thanks so much for everyone who has participated in my thread. Alot of great info for me to contemplate.

Wanted to respond to Botrytis (cool name dude). I think its more that I want the Croft Phono Integrated or the Sphinx V2 ( not having heard either of them!) only based on what I have read, their supposed excellent phono stages and their super cool simple looks.

Im kinda tired (well i guess it will always be fun but getting expensive) of going from one vintage amp to another in search of that elusive ideal sound. Right now my main amp is a newer Yamaha A-S501 and it sounds pretty good but I feel its lacking something (what I dont know). In addition to my current 4 solid state amps (the mentioned newer Yamaha; a 1979 Yamaha CR 420; Onkyo A-8015; & a Pioneer A-60) I recently aquired from CL a mini tube amp which I was told was designed and hand built by some Russian engineer/audiophile. Being my first tube amp experience I am delighted and amazed by the sound that this little wood box creates. Although it sounds really good I wish it had a bass knob because it seems to be lacking. Maybe its because of its size or that it only has 3 tubes?

Sorry to ramble but in conclusion I was hoping a hybrid would bring what I like about the Yamaha and the mini tube amp together...best of both worlds so to speak. Once again I think Im a dreamer.

Maybe the tone controls are a detrimental addiction that I need to break for the greater sonic good!

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Russian mini tube amp
 
Ok I think tubes is the sound Im looking for...

Just now hooked up my Sansui SR 525 with a cheap Bozak phono preamp i just acquired for this tube amp... How is it possible that this 3 wpc tube amp can drive my 4ohm psb Stratus Bronze's??!!! Is that a bad idea...could I fry something? Bad idea or not (but please someone let me know if it is!) it sounds great! Sounds more life like and multi dimensional than solid states that Ive heard.

Tone controls or not I think going full tube might be what Im looking for.....
 
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