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Hybrid (Silver/Copper) cables: do they make sense?

Rob-F

Rob-F

Likes Vintage Gear and DIY
I see where Kimber makes the Hero cable in three versions: There is a one with all copper conductors; one with silver; and one (Hero HB) that has a silver conductor for the "hot" and copper for the ground. I wonder: why is it important for electrons to ride into the amplifier on silver wire, but OK for them ride back home on a mere copper ground wire? Seems to me that both legs of the circuit are equally important.

It's sort of like this: someone builds a posh hotel for people with BMWs and Rolls Royces. They pave the entrance driveway with expensive Italian Travertine tile. The exit is a gravel road. (OK, maybe asphalt.)

Get my point? Does it make sense to upgrade one conductor to silver, and leave the other as copper, in the same circuit? What am I missing, here? :scratch2:
 
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From what I've experienced it isn't what the cable is made out of so much as how well it is made that has the most impact.

A poorly designed or made cable, with silver conductor, will be more likely to have problems or negatively impact your system's sound than a well made cable that uses copper or even aluminum for it's conductor.

That's really all I've got say on this never ending subject.

Mark Gosdin
 
mgosdin said:
From what I've experienced it isn't what the cable is made out of so much as how well it is made that has the most impact.
Click to expand...

Yes, good point, and I notice that the type of insulation is getting some attention, with an air dielectric being preferred. The property of a dielectric, such as Teflon, to store and re-release energy is being said to blur the sound.
 
Silver is the best conductor of electricity. In addition Silver Oxide (tarnish) is a conductor. That Green gunk on copper wire is not a conductor. The only thing Gold has going for it is that it doesn't oxidize.

Metal: Electrical conductivity in S.m-1
Silver: 63.0 x 106
Copper: 59.6 x 106
Gold: 45.2 x 106

My IC's and speaker cables are Silver plated Copper from DH Labs. All the shorter IC's (a meter or less) are their Air Matrix which uses a proprietary(?) dielectric.
 
Rob-F said:
I see where Kimber makes the Hero cable in three versions: There is a one with all copper conductors; one with silver; and one (Hero HB) that has a silver conductor for the "hot" and copper for the ground. I wonder: why is it important for electrons to ride into the amplifier on silver wire, but OK for them ride back home on a mere copper ground wire? Seems to me that both legs of the circuit are equally important.

It's sort of like this: someone builds a posh hotel for people with BMWs and Rolls Royces. They pave the entrance driveway with expensive Italian Travertine tile. The exit is a gravel road. (OK, maybe asphalt.)

Get my point? Does it make sense to upgrade one conductor to silver, and leave the other as copper, in the same circuit? What am I missing, here? :scratch2:
Click to expand...

I wonder: why is it important for electrons to ride into the amplifier on silver wire, but OK for them ride back home on a mere copper ground wire? Seems to me that both legs of the circuit are equally important.

I am a simple pig, with a basic understanding of physics. But you do realize that electrons do not flow at all in a wire transmitting a signal? The energy does excite the atom, and can move the distance between the nucleus and the electron shells. Then the energy is transferred into the the next atom and the process repeats itself, as one atom reaches an excited state and the other one releases its energy. The electrons never move, and flow down the wire. So there is no "ride" of electrons up and down a length of wire. Surely there are far more layers of complexity, but this is the foundational element.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
I run DPA microphones, which are quite a flat, sterile, natural sounding mic. In some halls, I learned that by using an SPC cable (Belden 1804a), that I could preserve some of the high frequency details by using SPC for capturing the diffuse sound. In the same venues, same ensembles, i could mellow the too bright a sound by utilizing copper cables (Canare L4E6S).
In the mastering environment, subtle changes like this can make a large impact.
 
Silver wire

First I agree with the "simple pig" - there are no electrons moving down any wire - think of the electrons as a boat on an ocean - a wave (energy) comes along, lifts the boat (but really does not move it any direction) and then the wave moves on.

As for silver/copper - such a coating effectively forms a diode - technically not unlike a Schottky diode as used in many integrated circuits. So I do not believe in the use of silver plated copper wire.

I DO BELIEVE that I can hear the effect of solid silver wire - especially when used in an interconnect. The sound seems "sharper" and "more detailed". However as another poster pointed out - sometimes, with some components such a sound is NOT desirable. Better to have the rolled off effect of solid copper. A "softer" sound if you will.

Now if you do not believe that the metal of an interconnect can make a sonic difference? Fine by me. Big country, room for all kinds of beliefs. Perhaps I am merely delusional. Could be.

Hey - it is a happy delusion.

So in response to the OP - either go with solid copper (Kimber is a very good cable manufacturer) or solid silver (I have some KCAG and find them very useful as interconnects - with SOME components - not all).

best
 
I'm torn. On one hand, - and I know not everybody believes this, but I don't really care - I can absolutely hear a difference, esp between copper and silver-plated copper. I can't say one is better than the other, which I prefer or if it's financially worth it, but there is definitely a difference. Silver and silver-plated copper consistently has more highs.

As to the 'silver in, copper out' notion, I have no idea. Sounds like horse-**** to me. Silver plate is the way to go in my opinion. The main drawback there is for folks that like to swap cables and constantly change out components, it seems the plate may develop cracks.

And that's all I have to say about that. :tongue:
 
I found that with 2 identical cables of silverplate and of copper the silver could sound sharper/"zingier" than the copper, so a choice based on that might be system and/or listener dependent.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
From High School physics, as best I can remember...

Gold...best conductor

Silver...second best

Copper...third best

Aluminum...fourth best

Of course, I'm probably wrong.
 
llanger said:
From High School physics, as best I can remember...

Gold...best conductor

Silver...second best

Copper...third best

Aluminum...fourth best

Of course, I'm probably wrong.
Click to expand...

Silver is absolutely the best natural metal conductor. Silver and copper are both better than gold. Gold is used for terminations so the copper isn't exposed. Copper oxide is not very conductive. As mentioned, silver oxide is a much better conductor than copper oxide.

Speaking of which, folks that use pare copper wire with no terminations... you can simply cut off the ends of your speaker cables, pull back some insulation and you very likely mind find that your same cables sound better just by exposing fresh copper. Of course, some insulation offgasses and will corrode the copper that is 'protected' by the insulation. Basically, if you do cut the ends off and strip some insulation back, if the newly-exposed copper is still greenish... well, that's not going to help you very much.

:D
 
Metal tarnish in a connection interface can have an asymmetrically polar characteristic at lower levels, like a diode, negatively affecting low level detail response. Dissimilar metals under certain conditions may also exhibit this phenomenon.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
I posted the facts concerning conductivity of Gold, Silver and Copper. I did not make up those figures. The insulation effects of Verdigris (the green crud Copper develops) are well known and quantified. Just as the conductivity of Silver tarnish is well known and quantified.

Once again; The only thing Gold has going for it is that it doesn't tarnish/corrode. It's third in conductivity behind Silver and Copper.
 
reddog48 said:
As for silver/copper - such a coating effectively forms a diode - technically not unlike a Schottky diode as used in many integrated circuits. So I do not believe in the use of silver plated copper wire.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I meant that cables in question have a silver "high" conductor, and a copper common conductor. I didn't mean to bring silver plating of copper into it!
 
Rob-F said:
Just to be clear, I meant that cables in question have a silver "high" conductor, and a copper common conductor. I didn't mean to bring silver plating of copper into it!
Click to expand...

OK, hadn't heard of a mix like this.


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
Mister Pig said:
I am a simple pig, with a basic understanding of physics. But you do realize that electrons do not flow at all in a wire transmitting a signal? The energy does excite the atom, and can move the distance between the nucleus and the electron shells. Then the energy is transferred into the the next atom and the process repeats itself, as one atom reaches an excited state and the other one releases its energy. The electrons never move, and flow down the wire. So there is no "ride" of electrons up and down a length of wire. Surely there are far more layers of complexity, but this is the foundational element.

Regards
Mister Pig
Click to expand...

Yes, Mister Pig, I do realize that. I took some liberties with the actual physics, I know. I didn't mean for us to get hung up on that point in physics. I'm just trying to question the wisdom of using silver for half the circuit and copper for the other half. Can it be a genuine improvement over a copper cable, or just a marketing strategy?
 
Rob-F said:
Yes, Mister Pig, I do realize that. I took some liberties with the actual physics, I know. I didn't mean for us to get hung up on that point in physics. I'm just trying to question the wisdom of using silver for half the circuit and copper for the other half. Can it be a genuine improvement over a copper cable, or just a marketing strategy?
Click to expand...

Would you get half the "benefits" of all Silver?:D
 
I made some really cheap speaker cables and use them to this day.

I got 50 feet of silver-plated, 12 gauge, stranded copper wire with Teflon insulation off eBay for pennies a foot. I cut it into fourths then twisted pairs with a power drill and covered with expanding fabric mesh protector sheath from Fry's. I used color-coded shrink-fit on the ends to hold it all together.

All for about the price of orange extension cord. It is a bit stiffer than I'd like but it is not too annoying.

Can't tell if it affects the sound one way or the other but it works just fine and I have both no complaints and bragging rights.
 
JoeESP9 said:
Would you get half the "benefits" of all Silver?:D
Click to expand...

That's what I'd like to know!

Then again, is it possible that the system performance is limited by the weakest element in the chain (in this case the copper wire)?
 
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