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Hybrid (Silver/Copper) cables: do they make sense?

davidro said:
Mike how would you compare the cable difference to room treatment difference?
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Room treatments are the first line of adjustment and make THE MOST substantial difference of anything in my system. My weird room sort of forced me early on to add some room treatments (and the fact that I visited Tomlinmgt who lives in the area, and heard what he had done in his room). I have six 24"x24" acoustic panels on my walls and two movable free standing panels that are 24"x 60".

Cables are the icing on the cake, like tossing different pebbles into a still pond and observing the difference in the ripple effect. I love messing with them because when you hit the right subtle combination it adds a dimension like no other component.

Acoustic treatment is like throwing a boulder in the pond which completely changes the nature of the pond. I went a little overboard on acoustic treatment at first with a "too dead" room as a result. I've got four panels sitting unused at the moment.
 
davidro said:
Thanks. Well you could ship me those 4 panels! :D
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Since it sounds like you want me to pick up the shipping costs, they should clear customs right around Labour Day:D:D, unless there is a slower and cheaper method, then Boxing Day:D:D
 
soundmig said:
This brings me to one of my pet peeves about Hi-End audio. Real voices and real instruments do not always sound pleasant. I've done a fair amount of time behind the mixing console, which includes copious listing to the un-mic'd source and comparing that to what is heard in the studio monitors. Trust me, many singers have an "edge" to their sound (live and un-mic'd) as do the sounds of snare drums, xylophones, rhodes pianos, strings played hard, etc. etc. etc. So, if a system cannot reproduce this "harshness" in a natural manner - it is to me "highly colored". So, there is natural and unnatural "harshness" and discerning between the two requires a LOT of aural experience. I find that most audiophiles prefer NO harshness, which is (IMO) unnatural and a coloration of its own. Solid Core silver and silver plated copper, seem to me to reproduce the "edge" in a natural way. This stuff is never easy - is it?
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This has been an interesting discussion. I totally agree on this point. A lot of the recording and mixing process is about smoothing out this "ugliness". I don't want my system dulling it any further.

I think with the current state of my gear I'm going to give silver plated copper ICs a shot.

Pure silver sounds intriguing too. Based on what I'm reading here it sounds like it could be good for what I'm hoping to do long term (big ol' full range drivers).
 
soundmig said:
onemug …. yes dielectric makes a difference.
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Agreed. I say this after many many hours making my own cables with all kinds of materials over the years. I can understand the skepticism as it took a while before I even heard the word dielectric, but if you compare enough, you will start to notice a pattern.

I used all kinds of teflon wires for a long time because lots of people were saying that's the best and yeah I found it was an improvement over PVC and slightly over PE. Then I finally got into the cotton as dielectric and even bare wire and that's when I noticed teflon's impact on the sound. Teflon adds a top end tizz and brightness that isn't quite natural IMO. Of course so much depends on synergy and comparisons to suss out the distinct signature. Once I got into cotton, even the 'cheaper' 4N quality Jupiter copper (as opposed to OCC/PCOCC, 6N etc.) sounded great compared to the pricey teflon. Way more fluid and natural and clear. I haven't gone back to teflon since.

As for silver plated/silver I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Silver is one of those materials that makes me wonder just how differently *do* people hear music because I HATE the sound of silver - especially silver plated. It is such a totally different presentation from copper that I simply cannot fathom anyone not being able to tell the difference. Silver is almost always bright, bright, bright. Yes, there's a kind of exciting clarity in the mids, albeit kind of flat, that sucks you in for a second but the second those cymbals crash oh man yikes. Yes some silver wire is better than others, but ultimately the overall signature is the same. There is a reason why a lot of tube folks have silver in their setup.

As for silver plated copper, I've found that to be the worst of both worlds - the plating tends to be poorer quality silver making the mids to highs even harsher while the copper, usually also poorer quality, just adds a fuzzy haze in the lower registers. Now I'm sure there are exceptions, I mean there are a billion cables out there, but by and large this has been my experience as a diy'er.
 
Wow if silver sounds all that different I'm even more intrigued.

FWIW, the cables inside my speakers are silver.
 
wushuliu said:
Agreed. I say this after many many hours making my own cables with all kinds of materials over the years. I can understand the skepticism as it took a while before I even heard the word dielectric, but if you compare enough, you will start to notice a pattern.

I used all kinds of teflon wires for a long time because lots of people were saying that's the best and yeah I found it was an improvement over PVC and slightly over PE. Then I finally got into the cotton as dielectric and even bare wire and that's when I noticed teflon's impact on the sound. Teflon adds a top end tizz and brightness that isn't quite natural IMO. Of course so much depends on synergy and comparisons to suss out the distinct signature. Once I got into cotton, even the 'cheaper' 4N quality Jupiter copper (as opposed to OCC/PCOCC, 6N etc.) sounded great compared to the pricey teflon. Way more fluid and natural and clear. I haven't gone back to teflon since.

As for silver plated/silver I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Silver is one of those materials that makes me wonder just how differently *do* people hear music because I HATE the sound of silver - especially silver plated. It is such a totally different presentation from copper that I simply cannot fathom anyone not being able to tell the difference. Silver is almost always bright, bright, bright. Yes, there's a kind of exciting clarity in the mids, albeit kind of flat, that sucks you in for a second but the second those cymbals crash oh man yikes. Yes some silver wire is better than others, but ultimately the overall signature is the same. There is a reason why a lot of tube folks have silver in their setup.

As for silver plated copper, I've found that to be the worst of both worlds - the plating tends to be poorer quality silver making the mids to highs even harsher while the copper, usually also poorer quality, just adds a fuzzy haze in the lower registers. Now I'm sure there are exceptions, I mean there are a billion cables out there, but by and large this has been my experience as a diy'er.
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Wow! To each his own. But there are many factors for different metal use. All gear hasn't been created equal.....Your statements are all inclusive. One important factor you never considered....some systems that are darker in nature may benefit from what silver adds.
 
slippers-on said:
Wow! To each his own. But there are many factors for different metal use. All gear hasn't been created equal.....Your statements are all inclusive. One important factor you never considered....some systems that are darker in nature may benefit from what silver adds.
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Which is why I singled out tube gear.

My post is not all inclusive. It's strictly from my experience. I have no issue if someone loves silver/teflon/whatever.
 
I am using silver plated copper in several of my IC's and would say in a close contest I prefer it over solid silver and solid copper. Seems a tad brighter to me than the others. Copper seems least bright.
 
wushuliu said:
Which is why I singled out tube gear.

My post is not all inclusive. It's strictly from my experience. I have no issue if someone loves silver/teflon/whatever.
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I have tube gear and couldn't use silver cables at all. All tubed gear is not created equal either. The amp and preamp is tubed. I then added the DAC which is really warm natured. I've never had a problem with my other sources, CDP and TT...but the DAC in conjunction with the tubes is classic tube warmth. To warm for my taste...warm side of neutral. After adding a WireWorld silver over copper RCA from DAC to preamp, it brought the sound back to neutral with rich tones...snap and life...things are sounding natural. No brightness or edginess whatsoever. Silver used when needed is the key. When used when not needed is pretty much when sound starts to suffer and brightness settles in. Otherwise, good copper should be all that one needs.
 
On the original topic; I've heard respected tube builders say that too much silver in the power supply can cause harshness of the music signal. I use silver plated copper for signal, and copper for power. No magical formula, it just works for me in several aspects. My interconnects are silver plated copper as they carry signal.
 
I can hear improvement with silver plated copper in the signal path. I'll be doing silver plated for my next set of speaker cables.

Crazy as it sounds, silver plated copper made a big difference in my USB cable. Can't explain it.
 
I was using Belden braided copper speaker wires, and then started reading about solid core wire possibly having advantages.

Went with Mapleshade's Clearview Double Helix, which is a very thin solid core copper wire with silver plating. It has a super thin (barely there) polymer dielectric and no terminations. Really minimal. In my system, it was an improvement over the braided copper.

FWIW, I auditioned some Audience AU24 SE speaker cables, and the difference I heard was so small (perceived slightly better resolution with Audience). I guess it speaks well for the Double Helix which costs quite a bit less. Again, my system, (and no affiliation with Mapleshade).
 
I'll look at the Double Helix...probably beyond my budget.

Ouch! Very nice, though. Quite expensive from where I sit.
 
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Welp, just grabbed a pair of Surf Cables silver/copper ICs for a price I could not turn down. They are replacing Linn Black between the CDP and integrated amp in my tube/full range rig.

As you might expect this setup is pretty weighted in the midrange and can sound nasal on certain material. I feel like with these in line things are a little more "scooped out" and airier on the top end, which is much more flattering in this setup.

Not sure if there is any substantial difference with the low end other than perceiving it differently with the other changes.

Definitely need to listen more obviously, but I'm happy so far.
 
Ok. 4 albums later I am pretty stoked on these. They are a great match for this particular system.

One track the stood out for me in particular is My Bloody Valentine's "Glider".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghLWCwhgg2U

I am a big MBV fan, but this is a tough one even for me. It can easily sound thin and flat. Like a lot of their stuff it's designed to provoke a reaction (their live performances are LOUD), but if it doesn't draw you in it's just grating noise. Did not have that problem this time.
 
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