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I finally get speaker placement

@Jim H B
Congrats on the speaker upgrade.
I say upgrade, cuz it's like getting a new pair of speakers when you spend some extra time, getting them in the right place and toeing them in to fit your space, and your particular ears.
My Kefs are also L and R specific, and they throw a hell of a sound stage, so this must make a difference.
And taping the placement is essential for me, but my I-Robot vacuum peels up a strip, now and then ...
Cheers.

Dave
 
david1111 said:
@Jim H B
Congrats on the speaker upgrade.
I say upgrade, cuz it's like getting a new pair of speakers when you spend some extra time, getting them in the right place and toeing them in to fit your space, and your particular ears.
My Kefs are also L and R specific, and they throw a hell of a sound stage, so this must make a difference.
And taping the placement is essential for me, but my I-Robot vacuum peels up a strip, now and then ...
Cheers.

Dave
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Thanks Dave - I was getting the itch to spend some $ on new equipment - but for now, that energy is now going toward seeing how good I can get the placement on the speakers I already have.

Another thing to consider - check the screws on the individual drivers - you might find some of them loose - gently tighten them up.
 
WaynerN said:
Because the speakers are left and right hand, they are symmetrical ( to the room). Other models, like ARs or Dynacos have tweeters off to the same side for both the left and right speaker and they will never be symmetrical to the room. New speaker designs align the drivers so there are no left and right hand (or all left hand, or all right hand) driver orientation. Makes speaker positioning easier.
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When I was a young fellow buying a brand new pair of HPM-60, I had an hour's drive home, so requested that I be able to unbox the speakers in the shop for a quick visual inspection, just in case. When we pulled the grills, the salesman said they were two right (or left, I don't recall) speakers so he'd have to go back and find me another speaker. I didn't understand what the heck he meant, and he explained. He was gone for awhile, finally returning to report that Pioneer didn't choose to build them but the one way. Fine, I didn't care; didn't really think it would make much difference. Too bad it didn't give me pause because I wound up not liking the speaker anyway. That was my intro to the subject of best L-R speaker design.

But now I have another puzzler after all these years. The Bryston Mini-T speakers I just bought are marked Left and Right. Three vertically in-line drivers right down the middle of the cabinet, which appears symmetrically designed. I must take a closer look, but the result of a cursory one was the cabs do look the same. The sides seem to run parallel then taper toward the back, I thought at the same angle on either side of the cabinet, but now I'm wondering if one side of each speaker cab angles back more than the other, but if so, it would only be a slight difference. I can't think of any other reason they would be marked, and don't recall reading anything about it... where'd the boss-lady put that OM, anyway? Or maybe the drivers aren't perfectly centered as it appeared; a slight offset would explain the markings... Next time I get my lazy butt out of this power recliner, I'll have to go take another look.
 
I got so pissed at my Dynaco A25XLs asymmetrical pair, that I had the cabinets rebuilt to make left and right hand, get rid of the front lip and invert the aperodic vent for cosmetics.

Picture 007.jpg

Picture 008.jpg

Now when I set the pair in the room, its easy to measure a corner of the speaker to a wall surface. The toe-in angle is the same for both. The system becomes symmetrical to the room. While manufacturers of the past decades thought they were saving some money with only one cabinet design and avoiding a pairing problem, they created an alignment problem that many people picked up on and became frustrated because they knew these speakers could sound better.

I have been eyeing my pair of AR-4x speakers as the next victim of my butchery. I will not make new cabinets for them, rather design a square cut-out that includes the tweeter hole and when rotated, will put the tweeter on the exact opposite side. Then fill in the saw cut (glue/screw/paint) and I will then have another matched pair. I have done this trick for another pair of Dynaco A25XL speakers in their original cabinets. Its a great trick.
 
musichal said:
When I was a young fellow buying a brand new pair of HPM-60, I had an hour's drive home, so requested that I be able to unbox the speakers in the shop for a quick visual inspection, just in case. When we pulled the grills, the salesman said they were two right (or left, I don't recall) speakers so he'd have to go back and find me another speaker. I didn't understand what the heck he meant, and he explained. He was gone for awhile, finally returning to report that Pioneer didn't choose to build them but the one way. Fine, I didn't care; didn't really think it would make much difference. Too bad it didn't give me pause because I wound up not liking the speaker anyway. That was my intro to the subject of best L-R speaker design.

But now I have another puzzler after all these years. The Bryston Mini-T speakers I just bought are marked Left and Right. Three vertically in-line drivers right down the middle of the cabinet, which appears symmetrically designed. I must take a closer look, but the result of a cursory one was the cabs do look the same. The sides seem to run parallel then taper toward the back, I thought at the same angle on either side of the cabinet, but now I'm wondering if one side of each speaker cab angles back more than the other, but if so, it would only be a slight difference. I can't think of any other reason they would be marked, and don't recall reading anything about it... where'd the boss-lady put that OM, anyway? Or maybe the drivers aren't perfectly centered as it appeared; a slight offset would explain the markings... Next time I get my lazy butt out of this power recliner, I'll have to go take another look.
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Maybe they just put left and right on them for affect. After all in use one will be on the left side and the other on the right so might as well label them. All's fair in sales and marketing. Just joking but who knows....
 
Since 1976 my speakers of choice Magnepans or ESL's have been plainly marked as to right and left or it hasn't mattered as with some ESL's.
 
WaynerN said:
I got so pissed at my Dynaco A25XLs asymmetrical pair, that I had the cabinets rebuilt to make left and right hand, get rid of the front lip and invert the aperodic vent for cosmetics.

View attachment 1391386

View attachment 1391390

Now when I set the pair in the room, its easy to measure a corner of the speaker to a wall surface. The toe-in angle is the same for both. The system becomes symmetrical to the room. While manufacturers of the past decades thought they were saving some money with only one cabinet design and avoiding a pairing problem, they created an alignment problem that many people picked up on and became frustrated because they knew these speakers could sound better.

I have been eyeing my pair of AR-4x speakers as the next victim of my butchery. I will not make new cabinets for them, rather design a square cut-out that includes the tweeter hole and when rotated, will put the tweeter on the exact opposite side. Then fill in the saw cut (glue/screw/paint) and I will then have another matched pair. I have done this trick for another pair of Dynaco A25XL speakers in their original cabinets. Its a great trick.
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Butchery? No. Corrective surgery. Nice.


I just got up and tried to take a closer look at the Mini-Ts. Had my trusty measuring tape, and still think the cabs and drivers are all centered and symmetrical, but must admit that between my untrusty vision, shaky hands and unsteady stance that I could not be absolutely certain within the rather short span of time I could remain erect without being in danger of having fallen and can't get up. Well, looking back through this paragraph prior to saving changes, that reads weird.

Lifestyles of the Poor and Precarious.
 
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I have found that more often the room limits various placement options, especially in a small room/bedroom, there's almost no room to move them left to right, or front to back. In my bedroom/stereo room which is only 13x14 , if I locate the front speakers 1/3 the way into the room with the listening chair in the normal position, the front speakers are only 5.5ft from my ears. If you want to watch a big tv then you are limited on how close they can be as they will block the screen area. Room layout often limits the wall your speakers can go on, and that wall may have a big fireplace or doorway, etc. Furniture also limits your speaker placement options
 
Jim H B said:
I've been interesting in hi-fi gear since high school, approx 50 years ago, and have owned a variety of pretty good gear (h/k, NAD, Pioneer, etc). But for all the time I've spent on other aspects of my systems, I've never really appreciated speaker placement. I never thought it was that important, and certainly it is largely dictated by your particular listening space.

But after moving to a new house, I set up a new listening space. The new space has a lot of flexibility in speaker placement. I also got out my JBL S38 speakers, which have distinct left and right speakers (non-symetrical). After reading through the S38 manual, I decided to do some measuring.

I measured so that my listening spot, and the two speakers made an equilateral triangle (ie, distance between my listening spot and each speaker, and the distance between the two speakers are equal.) I also then played with the toe-in on the speakers (purely subjective on this one - whatever gives the best soundstage).

Wow - big difference. Great sound stage and really makes the music engaging.

I'm probably preaching to the choir for a lot of you, but for those who haven't played much with your speaker placement - a little effort might bring big benefits.
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I didn't see it specifically mentioned in your post or subsequent replies, so I'll just mention it here.

While you're playing with speaker placement, also consider moving them farther away from the back wall if space permits. A couple feet vs a couple inches from the wall behind them can have a huge positive impact on sound. Keep your triangle, but try it 2 feet out or so and see if you hear an improvement as well.
 
Kef is very clear in their owners manual regarding the placement of their L and R marked R107s. They mention it numerous times, and I believe it has to do with the way any good reference pair of speakers is basicly custom built start to finish, and lab tested as that specific pair.
On the Kefs, I know that each speaker is built as a matched unit, and then the pair is tested and finished with the specific Kef Kube unit, which is an extension of the crossovers.

I'm sure that all the L and R marked speakers have been tested and finished off as a QC'd pair.
Anyway, I would think that woild be the reason for the marking.

Dave
 
david1111 said:
Like reydel said: a few feet off the front wall. Also, try not having anything between the speakers. I find that really adds to the soundstage in many ways.

Dave
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I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't witnessed it for myself in my own system. For decades, my speakers have always been placed at the wall for minimal intrusion into the living area.

I saw it recommended here in a number of threads to pull them out from the wall for better sound. Figured WTH, let's give it a try. A very significant improvement in soundstage and immersion, just by pulling the front baffles maybe 22" from the back wall. The only downside was sacrificing that area of living space to accommodate them. Eventually I got used to it even though it felt awkward for a while. Now I've got the floor marked where the stands sit so that I can move them when cleaning and get them right back to where they sound best.
 
@reydelaplaya
Man, I went thru exactly the same thing. And 22 inches is about where mine are at. Maybe 26?
And I've gotten used to the green masking tape on the floor. But what a different eh?

Dave
 
The best thing we've done for sound in our home was remodeling to an open floor plan. Still, having one medium-size living area for all social activities requires compromised speaker placement. I stole one of our three bedrooms for a dedicated listening room after buying the house, but that was short-lived once my total-care MIL moved in with us and re-stole it from me, and we require the remaining bedroom for guests. Wish I'd been born rich instead of so damned handsome.
 
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david1111 said:
@reydelaplaya
Man, I went thru exactly the same thing. And 22 inches is about where mine are at. Maybe 26?
And I've gotten used to the green masking tape on the floor. But what a different eh?

Dave
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Curiosity just got the best of me so I just whipped out the tape measure to see. The inner toe-in side of the baffles are 25" from the back and the outer are 26", so yeah, even more intrusive that I thought! LOL But whatever, they sound good there so that's where they'll stay. :)
 
reydelaplaya said:
Curiosity just got the best of me so I just whipped out the tape measure to see. The inner toe-in side of the baffles are 25" from the back and the outer are 26", so yeah, even more intrusive that I thought! LOL But whatever, they sound good there so that's where they'll stay. :)
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Mine are about the same, with less toe-in, but that is to my front baffle. Glad the Mini-T are only ten inches deep. Wish I could pull them out further, but seating disallows such a move. The fireplace makes placing everything troublesome, but it certainly came in handy when the furnace went out one weekend this season with sub-twenty-degree temps.
 
A tape measure and some masking tape are a very good audio accessories. Like others I noticed a significant improvement is sound quality by accurately locating the listening position to the speakers. Also, after the speakers are set correctly I can fine tune my turntable setup (anti-skate, azimuth, VTA typically done by ear) and locate/treat first reflection points. I also make sure the speakers are square to the back wall first before toeing in and pivot on only one speaker corner or spike. It is surprising how much the sound changes when each speaker's toe-in is different.
 
All great comments. My listening room is in the basement - (you can see where I rank) with a lot of open space. My speakers are about 3 ft from the back wall - but maybe too much of a good thing, my bass response isn't great. My current speakers are on the floor - (trying to get best bass response - on stands the bass really weak). The tweeters are about 6 inches below ear level, but imaging is still really good.
 
What you have sounds like a good place to work with. Surely much better than many of us have. Are those speakers going to fill it up?
 
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