I was really referring to more than the signal in the wire. The whole process of listening to sound, processing it in the brain, and how that sound interacts with memories that we all have that are triggered by the tempo and timbre. There is so much more going on when you're listening to music than the sound that is picked up by some meter. I'm not saying it isn't useful to measure things, just that they don't tell the whole story.
If you can hear it, it must be measurable
- Thread starter cwall99
- Start date
I was really referring to more than the signal in the wire. The whole process of listening to sound, processing it in the brain, and how that sound interacts with memories that we all have that are triggered by the tempo and timbre. There is so much more going on when you're listening to music than the sound that is picked up by some meter. I'm not saying it isn't useful to measure things, just that they don't tell the whole story.
Number 6
Active Member
That's got to be the most intelligent thing I've read regarding this subject on audiokarma. Humans have specific experiences and physical abilities, and listen to music through the filter of their minds. It is possible for most people to agree on the quality of a given sound, if only because they share the same physical characteristics and auditory sensory experience. However, there will always be a minority who don't share those same characteristics and will disagree. That's just inherent in the normal distribution (statistics) of a population. There are academic research journals, books and university courses dedicated to these subjects.
On the other hand... yes, I think there are measurable differences between cables e.g., that are discernable and can be agreed upon by people without the use of hypnosis, witchcraft or great marketing.
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whoaru99
Epic Member
I have no disagreement that the "magic" of music is in the artist's talent and the emotional chord certain things strike within us. While it seems quite boring, and often misunderstood, I just don't believe the "magic" comes from wires, resistors, tubes, transistors, et al.
Sure, some things sound different in regard to gear, but these things are not beyond understanding and measurement IMO, whereas there is nothing that really pins down just what trips our individual emotional and or pleasure triggers at any given moment. They're two intertwined yet different and separable things.
Sure, some things sound different in regard to gear, but these things are not beyond understanding and measurement IMO, whereas there is nothing that really pins down just what trips our individual emotional and or pleasure triggers at any given moment. They're two intertwined yet different and separable things.
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sheltie dave
Addicted Member
Nyquist and Heyser pointed toward measurement techniques that show in clear fashion how we could document discrete changes in speaker output. Cable manufacturers do not utilize these techniques to discern if there are changes, or differences.
While I am not a total measurement geek, I make my living measuring for radiation and radioactive contamination at and below natural environmental levels, most of the time. I deal with something that cannot be touched, tasted, smelled, seen, nor heard. When I can look at a reading and discern whether we are having high sunspot activity, a change in barometric pressure, or quantify how much radioactive sodium and uranium are present in a cigarette, a banana, or a can of coke, then I know we can do the same for a speaker/cable combination.
There really is only one explanation; that being such measurement data would financially benefit no one in the industry, so it will not happen.
As an aside, it is very interesting to see the patch cords we use for electrical devices at work, and at the VA hospital where my wife works. The heart/lung OR machine uses $85 BNC cables.
While I am not a total measurement geek, I make my living measuring for radiation and radioactive contamination at and below natural environmental levels, most of the time. I deal with something that cannot be touched, tasted, smelled, seen, nor heard. When I can look at a reading and discern whether we are having high sunspot activity, a change in barometric pressure, or quantify how much radioactive sodium and uranium are present in a cigarette, a banana, or a can of coke, then I know we can do the same for a speaker/cable combination.
There really is only one explanation; that being such measurement data would financially benefit no one in the industry, so it will not happen.
As an aside, it is very interesting to see the patch cords we use for electrical devices at work, and at the VA hospital where my wife works. The heart/lung OR machine uses $85 BNC cables.
So, I am going to suggest that you can quantify exactly what is different about two similar, quality audio systems, as I believe the technology certainly exists to do this. It would take many thousands of $/£ to do, and weeks or months rather than days to arrive at a verifiable set of information.
But when you have this information it really doesn't help you be clear about why a certain combination sounds so marvellous to one person and not to another.
Obviously there is a basic specification that will be appreciated by an educated listener. However, there will always be an additional layer of undefinable appreciation which makes all the difference. This appreciation is in the mind of the individual listener and cannot be quantified.
It seems to be a very powerful emotion indeed and one that fuels many debates about the attributes of one piece of gear, or combination of gear over another IMO.
But when you have this information it really doesn't help you be clear about why a certain combination sounds so marvellous to one person and not to another.
Obviously there is a basic specification that will be appreciated by an educated listener. However, there will always be an additional layer of undefinable appreciation which makes all the difference. This appreciation is in the mind of the individual listener and cannot be quantified.
It seems to be a very powerful emotion indeed and one that fuels many debates about the attributes of one piece of gear, or combination of gear over another IMO.
usedto
Lunatic Member
Exactly.
I can produce a thermometer that can measure the temperature at 107.2 degrees F. at one spot in my yard and 107.7 degrees F. in another, but defy most people to be able to tell the difference themselves.
sheltie dave
Addicted Member
Hyperion, the manufacturers have already provided us with the exact reasons why their product is different - and better.
I'm all for dropping some $$$$ on cables IF they point the system upwards. It is hard to make the jump, tho, when all the literature and reviews do not make a trend toward a group of products for high efficiency speakers, or for the low eff. Dahlquists, Thiels, and ARs I also run. The reviewers all use reference speakers leagues away from what I run.
I'm all for dropping some $$$$ on cables IF they point the system upwards. It is hard to make the jump, tho, when all the literature and reviews do not make a trend toward a group of products for high efficiency speakers, or for the low eff. Dahlquists, Thiels, and ARs I also run. The reviewers all use reference speakers leagues away from what I run.
Cuts no ice with me, how does that guarantee we will like the sound thus produced?
JonL
Lunatic Member
Technology is available to measure all kinds of things - things we can sense (like temperature) and things we cannot (like radioactivity). I still believe that our senses are discerning of subtleties we have not learned how to measure objectively. Is there a measurement technique that can identify the difference in taste between identical ingredients prepared by two different chefs?
What audio equipment of any kind gives you any guarantee you will like it? I have yet to see one.
Most decent cables are available for home trial, either from the manufacturer, a decent audio store or one of the many online vendors. If you don't like it, you return it and get your money back. Best guarantee in audio, if you ask me.
whoaru99
Epic Member
No different than audio, IMO. If there is a taste difference there is a chemical difference and it could be measured somehow. Mass spectrometry, perhaps.
If, OTOH, you mean which of the two dishes will be preferred by any given person, then no, IMO.
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
And how exactly would we do that? What would we be looking for to explain why cables can sound different for one another? I think you missed the point of more than a few posts in this thread: just because it's possible to measure something does not mean we are currently able to do so.
whoaru99
Epic Member
And just because you or I don't know exactly how to do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
The factors of R, C, and L are the influences. I'd be willing to wager that on any two cables where a difference can be heard, there will be a measurable difference in one, two, or all of those three properties.
shimniok
Super Member
I suspect it goes beyond just R, C, and L, and into some of the properties of electromagnetism. I wished I could talk to that in more detail but the EM class I took really threw me for a loop. It was like voodoo. With math. Maybe I'd understand it better today, I don't know. I know cable vendors make a lot of claims about the effects of strands, size of conductor, purity of conductor, etc. I don't know if any is legit or not but I definitely got the sense from that EM class years ago that it isn't quite as simple as I'd originally thought so I am open to some possibilities.
Michael
Exactly, - I took the response to mean that you simply have to believe what the manufacturer says about their gear for it to be guaranteed that it will sound good to you. When was the last time you bought anything audio related - knowing it would sound perfect to you just because the manufacturer says so? (exact words used were "provided us with the exact reasons why their product is different - and better")
I agree this is an intelligently thought out way of allowing people to chose the cable that sounds best to them - from all I have read here and elsewhere this has no bearing on the cost of those cables or what the manufacturer says about them!
Nicely put JonL
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Tangent
Sweet nightmares!
Or what sounds best in their system.
I have wires that sound terrible in one system but great in another.
Hey - this is AK! Are there really people here with only one system?!?!?
(yea, yea I know.... space, the room and WAF....)
On the stereo system where my $5.99 RCA interconnects sound best, I can replace the interconnects with more expensive ones costing hundreds of dollars. I think I have about 5 different types of interconnects right now and I've tried about five more that I sold, returned or gave away. In each case the sound had changed. Some had greater detail, some made the music more "forward" others just made the music sound "different."
Once I was listening to some music through exotic interconnects (well, they came from Australia - that's exotic enough for me!
) but I was not happy. I was sitting there trying to figure out what was wrong (more detail and sound staging... yet where is the "soul" or "reality" of the music??) when the W. walked through the room and said "What did you do to your stereo? It sounded better yesterday" :scratch2: That was it for them! Who cares how they're different! I mailed them back the next day!Do they measure differently? Do any of my cables measure differently? I have no idea.
But they all do different things so one would settle with the interconnects that suit them and their stereo best.
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whoaru99
Epic Member
Again, just because it isn't simple and isn't something that most people can do in their spare time doesn't mean it can't be done.
If scientific/engineering principles can be used to influence design, surely the same scientific principles can explain their function, yes?
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Just an opinion but...
We have the best measuring instruments on the sides of your heads.
We can measure very little compared with the ears listening to music.
We have the best measuring instruments on the sides of your heads.
We can measure very little compared with the ears listening to music.