If you can hear it, it must be measurable

[Hyperion]

I wonder if it would be possible to measure a difference in 'something' if a system was set up in an anechoic chamber for example. A baseline set of measurements made, and then checked again using a selection of interconnects and re-measuring each time :scratch2:

This would isolate the changes made by just the interconnects. Percieved changes in system performance are really dramatic so the cable pundits tell us. Wouldn't this be the way to find out how cables are changing the system performance, and give us more of a handle on the issue?

 

[sheltie dave]

Hyperion, the audio rags all run their time/frequency/dB plots in their house system. Keep everything the same EXCEPT the cables, and then we are looking at different traces based only on cables. VOILA, we have a starting point. Break the measuring out to below 300 Hz, a narrow midrange, and a small range near 20K to see about extension.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Such as?

Here's another example, this one on skin effect.

That's exactly my point, they either don't exist, or nobody is using them, that's what this thread is about. Actually you should be aiming that question at Sheltie Dave, who thinks he has all the answers. No offense Dave, but you make it sound like this has all been figured out yet for some mysterious reason nobody is doing the measurements, and I just don't buy it.

As for the audioholics article, they present it as fact that skin effect does not affect the sound of a cable, many people heartily disagree with that claim. Besides, you know they've insinuated in the past that AK is a cult?

Just looking at Belden's specs for 89259 the data it is manufactured to includes specs like:

Conductor gauge stranding and material
Insulation type and thickness
Shield type and percent coverage
Outer jacket type
Inductance per foot
Capacitance per foot
Velocity of propagation
Nom. delay
Nom. resistance
Voltage rating

Belden isn't concerned about anything else.

Belden doesn't make cable that's put in more expensive or "exotic" designs.

 

[carbonman]

Besides, you know they've insinuated in the past that AK is a cult?

It isn't? Oh, no, I'll have to find more seriously deranged online friends!

 

[whoaru99]

Belden doesn't make cable that's put in more expensive or "exotic" designs.

You mean aside from the fact that it's quite widely used in studios and broadcast facilities around the world?

Chances are good to excellent the recordings you play have at some point gone through Belden cable.

 

[whoaru99]

.... but you make it sound like this has all been figured out yet for some mysterious reason nobody is doing the measurements, and I just don't buy it.

Who is "nobody"?

As for the audioholics article, they present it as fact that skin effect does not affect the sound of a cable, many people heartily disagree with that claim.

I'm sure they do/would disagree. What point would it be for a cable guy to say "look, my cable is designed to reduce skin effect....but it really doesn't have any effect at audio frequencies anyway."

 

[sheltie dave]

Mr. Lin, does it strike you as strange that all the speaker manufacturers drop so much money into research and development, and then measure, measure, measure as they listen?

Acoustical engineering, electrical engineering, and properties engineering are all sciences, and as such all have best practices that have been proven to work well, are reliable, and are repeatable in field conditions.

I don't have all the answers. I do have a skeptical mind, and I can recognize there are unanswered questions about the cables/audio performance that can be readily addressed (or begin to be addressed)with current testing technology.

I also see manufacturers at the bar, chortling in their beers at the consumers who have swallowed their marketing pitch, the best developed and researched part of their manufactured product line.

Just as with speakers, everything sounds different. The question remains...what is different, what is quality, and what is superior? That leads to what is the nature of the good and superior? If you don't want to know the nature, you wander in the wilderness.

 

[Bigerik]

You mean aside from the fact that it's quite widely used in studios and broadcast facilities around the world?

Chances are good to excellent the recordings you play have at some point gone through Belden cable.

Which still doesn't change the fact that Belden doesn't make cable that's put in more expensive or "exotic" designs.

Nothing particularly exotic in most studios or broadcast facilities.

 

[Bigerik]

Mr. Lin, does it strike you as strange that all the speaker manufacturers drop so much money into research and development, and then measure, measure, measure as they listen?

Acoustical engineering, electrical engineering, and properties engineering are all sciences, and as such all have best practices that have been proven to work well, are reliable, and are repeatable in field conditions.

I don't have all the answers. I do have a skeptical mind, and I can recognize there are unanswered questions about the cables/audio performance that can be readily addressed (or begin to be addressed)with current testing technology.

I also see manufacturers at the bar, chortling in their beers at the consumers who have swallowed their marketing pitch, the best developed and researched part of their manufactured product line.

Just as with speakers, everything sounds different. The question remains...what is different, what is quality, and what is superior? That leads to what is the nature of the good and superior? If you don't want to know the nature, you wander in the wilderness.

I guess I still don't get from all of this what you are looking for :scratch2:

 

[Grainger49]

Which still doesn't change the fact that Belden doesn't make cable that's put in more expensive or "exotic" designs.

Nothing particularly exotic in most studios or broadcast facilities.

My point about the Belden cable was that many DIYers use this cable as it is very low pF/Ft and relatively inexpensive. It is not manufactured to Audiophile specifications and is good sounding.

As for studios, DMP uses only Audiophile cabling in their studio.

 

[Bigerik]

My point about the Belden cable was that many DIYers use this cable as it is very low pF/Ft and relatively inexpensive. It is not manufactured to Audiophile specifications and is good sounding.

As for studios, DMP uses only Audiophile cabling in their studio.

I disagree with nothing you say here.
Belden makes good stuff, but nothing exotic.

 

[Mr. Lin]

You mean aside from the fact that it's quite widely used in studios and broadcast facilities around the world?

Chances are good to excellent the recordings you play have at some point gone through Belden cable.

Yes they have, with the Zebra Cable power cord I own. Nothing else, I guarantee it. Again, and like Erik said, just because they make decent and inexpensive cable that a lot of people and studios use does not mean they're top-of-the-line, nor does it mean they're the best out there at that price point, and it most certainly does not put them in the same league as some of the more exotic boutique designs out there that do actually make the difference they claim to.

Who is "nobody"?




I'm sure they do/would disagree. What point would it be for a cable guy to say "look, my cable is designed to reduce skin effect....but it really doesn't have any effect at audio frequencies anyway."

Who is nobody? If you read Sheltie Dave's posts, he claims there are already ways to measure the differences some of us hear between cables that go beyond the standard R, C and L, although he has yet to really lay out how that would be done. If these supposed methods exist, and none of the major cable manufacturers are utilizing them, to me that implies a vast conspiracy to cover something up. Like many vast conspiracy theories, that is improbable and there's not really any substantial evidence to back it up.

Mr. Lin, does it strike you as strange that all the speaker manufacturers drop so much money into research and development, and then measure, measure, measure as they listen?

Acoustical engineering, electrical engineering, and properties engineering are all sciences, and as such all have best practices that have been proven to work well, are reliable, and are repeatable in field conditions.

I don't have all the answers. I do have a skeptical mind, and I can recognize there are unanswered questions about the cables/audio performance that can be readily addressed (or begin to be addressed)with current testing technology.

I also see manufacturers at the bar, chortling in their beers at the consumers who have swallowed their marketing pitch, the best developed and researched part of their manufactured product line.

Just as with speakers, everything sounds different. The question remains...what is different, what is quality, and what is superior? That leads to what is the nature of the good and superior? If you don't want to know the nature, you wander in the wilderness.

This is something I'll never understand, the need to have scientific proof of something you're hearing to really believe you're hearing it. I'm not wandering in the wilderness, the "nature" of what I listen to is quite clear enough to my ears.

It doesn't strike me as strange that people who develop speakers put so much money into research and then perform lots of measurements. They're not designing cables, they're designing something that can be easily measured to determine at least some aspects of what they'll sound like, although in the end any designer of any audio component who has a clue will tell you that listening to what you're designing is ultimately the most important thing.

Do you find it strange that most speakers, even more expensive ones, come with nothing more special than standard 18awg stranded copper zip cord in them? I do. Do you also think it's strange that replacing the zip cord with some of the expensive boutique wire that's bashed all over the internet as snake oil yields undeniable improvements in the sound quality? Maybe it is strange, but I've just finished another speaker project just like that, and had the same results.

To me, and I know a lot of others here, the debate is over about whether or not high-end boutique cables can really enhance the performance of your system. Yes, some of them make claims that are dubious and unsubstantiated, that exists in all corners of this hobby. But to dismiss all these things because it's a long-held notion that "wire is wire" (and it is a long held notion), and because much of it hasn't been demonstrated scientifically, I think is becoming an outdated way of thinking about cables given all the experiences we hear about and read about and experience for ourselves that tell us something very different.

 

[ehoove]

This debate goes on and on, and will continue to as long as open mids explore to posibilities of system improvement other than more expensive or different equipment. The better your system gets in terms of resolution and response, the more these non measurable tweaks come into play. I have wired my Bi-Amped Magnapan MGIIIa's using 12 Ga. Belden OFC Copper Stranded wire for the mid panels and Ribbon Tweeters, and 12 Ga. Solid Core OFC Magnet Wire for the Bass Panels and Subwoofer. This produces a very solid fast bottom end and smooth open top end. If I reverse the two the top end becomes edgy and a tad brittle, and the bottom end loses definition and speed. This combination with the Belden on the mid panels/Ribbons, and the Magnet wire on the Bass Panels and Sub is so far superior to the reverse that there is no doubt in my mind or hearing that different cables sound different. This has been substantiated by many friends and musicians who have listened to my system, and several have been amazed by the difference.
If you choose to not explore ways to improve your system and it is adequate for you, more power to you. Enjoy it as it is, but don't take the attitude that those who choose to explore are fools being duped by marketing gurus, because that is how some of you are coming off in this thread. I ordered my Belden From Blue Jeans Cable and assembled them myself, and the magnet wire purchased in bulk was far from expensive, but worked well enough to earn its place in my main rig. There is a lot of snobbery on many of the forums on the Internet, as well as a lot of reverse snobbery as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread. I judge no one's views on this hobby, because I don't feel it helps our hobby one bit. But please don't tell me what I hear or don't hear, for I will never do that to you. Enjoy the Music!
Regards,
Jim

 

[sheltie dave]

Mr. Lin and others, the audio rags already are measuring cable performance, every time they do a speaker, amp, preamp, turntable, and cd player review. The only caveat is they only are doing it for a reference set of cables. It would not be hard for them to compare Heyser nodal plots, waterfall 3Ds, and Nyquist plots, or to publish some of their archived data captures and create an ongoing conversation about a part of the industry still in the Dark Ages.

Why generate all these data captures and publish them for speakers costing $3000, but issue a free pass for the $3000 speaker cables? Let's see the same report on ten leading speAker cables on the same system.

Sound is a phenomina that has measurable speed, energy, intensity, frequency, attack, decay, timbre, et al. These all are properties we can measure, with instruments both readily accessed, widely understood, and two decades more accurate than the human ear. All cabling, no matter how many hootchie coos are put in the stuff by witch doctors at the factory, are then relegated to producing these everyday properties for the rest of their days. Measure it and we can see if we are delusional, or if $3000 is money well spent, or if $20 will suffice.

Maybe someone didn't read this. Measure using one set of cables. Measure using a different set of cables. Difference in measurements is dirrectly due to changeout in set of cables. Voila. Ask questions. Formulate hypothesis. Investigate. Listen.

Am I supposed to be the snob, the reverse snob, or merely the Snickers bar floating in the punch bowl? I take it no one in this forum, and most at AudioKarma, gives two figs about measuring things. Oh well.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Maybe someone didn't read this. Measure using one set of cables. Measure using a different set of cables. Difference in measurements is dirrectly due to changeout in set of cables. Voila. Ask questions. Formulate hypothesis. Investigate. Listen.

Measure what?

 

[fotno]

Dave, I for one am fascinated by the potential inherent with audio measurement. My argument is that at whatever level the technology currently exists, I believe it's being underutilized to develop both new technology, and marketing techniques for same.

In general, I do believe that most (if not all) that we are capable of hearing can be measured by existing means, and should be. However to borrow & paraphrase a previous analogy, good cooks often measure their ingredients, but I don't know of any who would allow a dish to leave their kitchen without first tasting it as well. It's simply imperative that designers use every means at their disposal to provide their customers with the best possible end product. To depend entirely on either objective or subjective means, almost guarantees the end product will not reach it's fullest potential.

 

[Grainger49]

:boxing::bash::twak:istols:

It's painful!

 

[Face]

Am I supposed to be the snob, the reverse snob, or merely the Snickers bar floating in the punch bowl?

There is too much reverse snobbery here, hence why I haven't been active here at all lately.

I have measured and compared a pair of Goertz Flatwire speaker cables and a pair of MIT AVt MA speaker cables. There were some differences in the low end, but what does that tell us really? Ok, one may have different bass response than the other. How about the differences in soundstage width, height and depth, spatial information, etc... How do we measure those things? What kind of gear are you using to make comparisons? Is the room acoustically treated? Or are you just hypothesizing?

 

[RickB]

OK so the measurement uber alles types at Audioholics measured the cables...OK, but how did they sound? Do they even know HOW to listen, what to listen to, and what to listen for? Or are they today's version of the tin eared numbskulls at Stereo Review and Consumer's Reports?

And how do the measurements they made correlate to that sound?

How can one use those measurements to tune their system without actually auditioning the cables in their own system?

It is not possible in this day and age with our understanding of what goes on with the cables, with the wave propagation in them, with the interaction between different and disparate pieces of gear, and biases of the listener to make any kind of predictions that do not involve the exact same pieces of gear as used to make the measurements, including line voltage, noise on the line, and all kinds of other subtle things that can influence the sound of a stereo system.

Believe me, there is no silent collusion between dealers, cable manufacturers, and the high end magazines, because once you have messed with these things as long as I have and heard so many different interactions, not only on my very own gear but on the really exotic stuff I have the distinct honor to work with at a part time job, you will start to lose the urge to ask how or why and just "suck it and see"...

In other words, all my engineering background and years as a Ham Radio operator and as an electronics enthusiast since the mid 1960's, still do make me question how and why a bit, but my experiences have trumped the incredulity that used to accompany the questions and has left me more willing to just try something rather than dismiss it out of hand...

Like Sheltie Dave, I once worried about trying to fit into my head and my world view all the reasons why different cables sounded different and reacted differently in different systems, but I outgrew that, and just learned to try it and see...if something makes a difference to me, then far out, if it doesn't then I don't go on and on and on and on about why you can't possibly believe that anything so asinine as changing a cable can make your system sound different because the measurements don't support that...baloney...

If it makes a difference to you then fine.

If it doesn't, or you can't hear it, then please, go about your merry business and leave alone those of us who are so deluded as to think that cables, or supports, or racks, or power conditioning, etc., can make a difference in our systems.

.

 

[JohnVF]

OK so the measurement uber alles types at Audioholics measured the cables...OK, but how did they sound? Do they even know HOW to listen, what to listen to, and what to listen for? Or are they today's version of the tin eared numbskulls at Stereo Review and Consumer's Reports?

And how do the measurements they made correlate to that sound?

How can one use those measurements to tune their system without actually auditioning the cables in their own system?

It is not possible in this day and age with our understanding of what goes on with the cables, with the wave propagation in them, with the interaction between different and disparate pieces of gear, and biases of the listener to make any kind of predictions that do not involve the exact same pieces of gear as used to make the measurements, including line voltage, noise on the line, and all kinds of other subtle things that can influence the sound of a stereo system.

Believe me, there is no silent collusion between dealers, cable manufacturers, and the high end magazines, because once you have messed with these things as long as I have and heard so many different interactions, not only on my very own gear but on the really exotic stuff I have the distinct honor to work with at a part time job, you will start to lose the urge to ask how or why and just "suck it and see"...

In other words, all my engineering background and years as a Ham Radio operator and as an electronics enthusiast since the mid 1960's, still do make me question how and why a bit, but my experiences have trumped the incredulity that used to accompany the questions and has left me more willing to just try something rather than dismiss it out of hand...

Like Sheltie Dave, I once worried about trying to fit into my head and my world view all the reasons why different cables sounded different and reacted differently in different systems, but I outgrew that, and just learned to try it and see...if something makes a difference to me, then far out, if it doesn't then I don't go on and on and on and on about why you can't possibly believe that anything so asinine as changing a cable can make your system sound different because the measurements don't support that...baloney...

If it makes a difference to you then fine.

If it doesn't, or you can't hear it, then please, go about your merry business and leave alone those if us who are so deluded as to think that cables, or supports, or racks, or power conditioning, etc., can make a difference in our systems.

.

Fantastic post.