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If you can hear it, it must be measurable

More information is better. Even if the information doesn't make sense yet. File it away. Think about it. Learn how to get better information. I don't think today's measurements tell us everything, but someday measurements will.
 
RickB said:
OK so the measurement uber alles types at Audioholics measured the cables...OK, but how did they sound? Do they even know HOW to listen, what to listen to, and what to listen for? Or are they today's version of the tin eared numbskulls at Stereo Review and Consumer's Reports?

And how do the measurements they made correlate to that sound?

How can one use those measurements to tune their system without actually auditioning the cables in their own system?

It is not possible in this day and age with our understanding of what goes on with the cables, with the wave propagation in them, with the interaction between different and disparate pieces of gear, and biases of the listener to make any kind of predictions that do not involve the exact same pieces of gear as used to make the measurements, including line voltage, noise on the line, and all kinds of other subtle things that can influence the sound of a stereo system.

Believe me, there is no silent collusion between dealers, cable manufacturers, and the high end magazines, because once you have messed with these things as long as I have and heard so many different interactions, not only on my very own gear but on the really exotic stuff I have the distinct honor to work with at a part time job, you will start to lose the urge to ask how or why and just "suck it and see"...

In other words, all my engineering background and years as a Ham Radio operator and as an electronics enthusiast since the mid 1960's, still do make me question how and why a bit, but my experiences have trumped the incredulity that used to accompany the questions and has left me more willing to just try something rather than dismiss it out of hand...

Like Sheltie Dave, I once worried about trying to fit into my head and my world view all the reasons why different cables sounded different and reacted differently in different systems, but I outgrew that, and just learned to try it and see...if something makes a difference to me, then far out, if it doesn't then I don't go on and on and on and on about why you can't possibly believe that anything so asinine as changing a cable can make your system sound different because the measurements don't support that...baloney...

If it makes a difference to you then fine.

If it doesn't, or you can't hear it, then please, go about your merry business and leave alone those of us who are so deluded as to think that cables, or supports, or racks, or power conditioning, etc., can make a difference in our systems.
.
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AMEN!! I nominate this for the best post of the year.
 
whoaru99 said:
Who is "nobody"? "
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I thought nobody was everybody. :)

sheltie dave said:
Just as with speakers, everything sounds different. The question remains...what is different, what is quality, and what is superior? That leads to what is the nature of the good and superior? If you don't want to know the nature, you wander in the wilderness.
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I still think there is a lot to do with the other equipment you're using and - yes - even the source.

I had a Technics receiver with New Large Advent speakers. Bought an audiophile LP once (actually, twice) but was not impressed with the slight improvement in sound. Especially at the price I paid! Eeek!

Now, with my present stereo system there is a world of difference!

And if that's a self portriate of Grainger49, I want to meet her!!!! :D:tresbon::D:tresbon::D :tresbon:
 
RickB said:
OK so the measurement uber alles types at Audioholics measured the cables...OK, but how did they sound? Do they even know HOW to listen, what to listen to, and what to listen for? Or are they today's version of the tin eared numbskulls at Stereo Review and Consumer's Reports?

And how do the measurements they made correlate to that sound?

How can one use those measurements to tune their system without actually auditioning the cables in their own system?

It is not possible in this day and age with our understanding of what goes on with the cables, with the wave propagation in them, with the interaction between different and disparate pieces of gear, and biases of the listener to make any kind of predictions that do not involve the exact same pieces of gear as used to make the measurements, including line voltage, noise on the line, and all kinds of other subtle things that can influence the sound of a stereo system.

Believe me, there is no silent collusion between dealers, cable manufacturers, and the high end magazines, because once you have messed with these things as long as I have and heard so many different interactions, not only on my very own gear but on the really exotic stuff I have the distinct honor to work with at a part time job, you will start to lose the urge to ask how or why and just "suck it and see"...

In other words, all my engineering background and years as a Ham Radio operator and as an electronics enthusiast since the mid 1960's, still do make me question how and why a bit, but my experiences have trumped the incredulity that used to accompany the questions and has left me more willing to just try something rather than dismiss it out of hand...

Like Sheltie Dave, I once worried about trying to fit into my head and my world view all the reasons why different cables sounded different and reacted differently in different systems, but I outgrew that, and just learned to try it and see...if something makes a difference to me, then far out, if it doesn't then I don't go on and on and on and on about why you can't possibly believe that anything so asinine as changing a cable can make your system sound different because the measurements don't support that...baloney...

If it makes a difference to you then fine.

If it doesn't, or you can't hear it, then please, go about your merry business and leave alone those of us who are so deluded as to think that cables, or supports, or racks, or power conditioning, etc., can make a difference in our systems.

.
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Excellent Rick, I think this sums it up very nicely.
 
GaryP said:
. . . I had a Technics receiver with New Large Advent speakers. Bought an audiophile LP once (actually, twice) but was not impressed with the slight improvement in sound. Especially at the price I paid! Eeek!

Now, with my present stereo system there is a world of difference!

And if that's a self portriate of Grainger49, I want to meet her!!!! :D:tresbon::D:tresbon::D :tresbon:
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First, you should have added and the awful music on audiophile albums (Sheffield in particular).

No, not me, nor my wife. Gentlemen, for those who are younger, this is Elvira, Mistress of the Dark. Back 15 years ago it was my wife's favorite Halloween costume. I never even got a picture of her so I am using the original as my Halloween avatar.

It seems RickB and I are contemporary, I bet he knew who she is.
 
Grainger49 said:
First, you should have added and the awful music on audiophile albums (Sheffield in particular).

No, not me, nor my wife. Gentlemen, for those who are younger, this is Elvira, Mistress of the Dark. Back 15 years ago it was my wife's favorite Halloween costume. I never even got a picture of her so I am using the original as my Halloween avatar.

It seems RickB and I are contemporary, I bet he knew who she is.
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Sho 'nuff!

I well remember her on the tube....Cassandra Peterson, was actually a pretty decent looking redhead, but now at 60...well...

0000520438-15566L.jpg
Cassandra%20Peterson-SGS-008272.jpg


I guess still not too bad for an older woman...if you are into that kind of thing....

But Hell, all the screen "goddesses" of my earlier years (when one actually had to go to a movie theater to see movies) have taken quite a beating, Sophia Loren, Gina Lolabrigida, Racquel Welch, Ursula Andress, Tina Louise, Brigitte Bardot...sigh...all old wimmen now...

TL1.JPG
Tina%20Louise-SGY-006973.jpg



Sophia+Loren3.jpg
ASG-002606.jpg


0001297697-67718L.jpg
5945_lollob88620826.jpg


039_64320.jpg
sr208_Welch88420458.jpg


Damn, the sugarplums that used to dance in my shorts, err, head, have turned into prunes....


I guess that makes me just another old fart....
 
Just broke into my 40's and Cassandra looks fine to me too.

Now, don't you guys try to bring measurements into this part of the discussion!
:)
 
Bigerik said:
Now, don't you guys try to bring measurements into this part of the discussion!
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Right! At my place, it's her job.... YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:tears:

Grainger49 said:
First, you should have added and the awful music on audiophile albums (Sheffield in particular).
Click to expand...

No, these were not those "audiophile" records like Sheffield that are recorded beautifully but consist of a vocalist and a stand up bass player, both of whom you never heard of and never want to hear of again! :D The items in question were Dark Side of the Moon and Cosmo's Factory (both from MFSL of course!)
 
Bigerik said:
Just broke into my 40's and Cassandra looks fine to me too.

Now, don't you guys try to bring measurements into this part of the discussion!
:)
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And I'm creeping up on 30, and I think she looks attractive for her age. Hmm, this thread has taken an interesting turn. :scratch2:
 
GaryP said:
. . . No, these were not those "audiophile" records like Sheffield that are recorded beautifully but consist of a vocalist and a stand up bass player, both of whom you never heard of and never want to hear of again! :D The items in question were Dark Side of the Moon and Cosmo's Factory (both from MFSL of course!)
Click to expand...

You are not familiar, lucky guy that you are, with Lincoln Mayorga and Distinguished Colleagues. A whole bunch of musicians who you never want to hear.

:puke:
 
I'm not that lucky, actually. I was in a stereo store listening to over $200,000.00 worth of gear (!!!! Really NICE stuff!!!) and they were playing a recording from Jachynth (or whoever she was). You could hear the decay of the instruments, hear finger plucking of the bass strings, hear her every breath (she had a cavity on her rear molar) and I started to leave after about 30 seconds. It was all I could take.

But they quickly turned it off when I started to leave.

By that story you'd think I was well healed, ultra rich. Uhhh, no, nothing could be further from the truth. I guess they let riff-raff in there once in a while! :D

But, really, they're nice folks.

Actually Erik pulled a nice CD player out of there once. Used, of course.... class A IIRC.
 
Wow!
This is HUGE! I can't wait to read what Dudley writes about it. Talk about the perfect person to explain it to us.
 
It would be nice if they actually said something of substance. All they said is that they came up with a new way to measure something in the digital domain that show big improvements in something due to various tweaks. There's no meat on the bones yet. I'm open-minded... I hope there is meat on the bones that just hasn't been discussed in the article. We'll see.
 
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