If you can hear it, it must be measurable

[Brett]

Lots of air and no substance yet. Lets see if they have the guts to present it to the AES.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Lots of air and no substance yet. Lets see if they have the guts to present it to the AES.

From the article:

This will not happen overnight—developing these measurements took a good six months, and this is very much a work in progress—but the results so far are extremely heartening.

 

[Brett]

From the article:

This will not happen overnight—developing these measurements took a good six months, and this is very much a work in progress—but the results so far are extremely heartening.

So? Still no substance other than people with a vested interest giving loose figures, with nothing to back it up and no peer review.

 

[willysan]

I think the article is a piece of advertising.
However, from the many claims I'd like to focus on the CD player whose power cord was replaced. The author says the timing errors were reduced by 36%. Clearly the CD player had a poorly designed power supply without adequate filtering. By the same token, the power cord had some sort of built-in filter.
Many years ago, people from Fluke, Hewlett-Packard or Tektronix knew how to design a good power supply and their instruments performed flawlessly without resorting to audiophile power cords.
It's a shame we've forgotten such a stuff.

 

[Bigerik]

I think the article is a piece of advertising.
However, from the many claims I'd like to focus on the CD player whose power cord was replaced. The author says the timing errors were reduced by 36%. Clearly the CD player had a poorly designed power supply without adequate filtering. By the same token, the power cord had some sort of built-in filter.
Many years ago, people from Fluke, Hewlett-Packard or Tektronix knew how to design a good power supply and their instruments performed flawlessly without resorting to audiophile power cords.
It's a shame we've forgotten such a stuff.

Not clear at all what happened with this cd player. We don't have the information yet. All we got was an intro to it. I am looking forward to Art Dudleys column to find out more.

 

[whoaru99]

Cold fusion.

 

[whoaru99]

OK so the measurement uber alles types at Audioholics measured the cables...OK, but how did they sound? Do they even know HOW to listen, what to listen to, and what to listen for? Or are they today's version of the tin eared numbskulls at Stereo Review and Consumer's Reports?

And how do the measurements they made correlate to that sound?

How can one use those measurements to tune their system without actually auditioning the cables in their own system?

It is not possible in this day and age with our understanding of what goes on with the cables, with the wave propagation in them, with the interaction between different and disparate pieces of gear, and biases of the listener to make any kind of predictions that do not involve the exact same pieces of gear as used to make the measurements, including line voltage, noise on the line, and all kinds of other subtle things that can influence the sound of a stereo system.

Believe me, there is no silent collusion between dealers, cable manufacturers, and the high end magazines, because once you have messed with these things as long as I have and heard so many different interactions, not only on my very own gear but on the really exotic stuff I have the distinct honor to work with at a part time job, you will start to lose the urge to ask how or why and just "suck it and see"...

In other words, all my engineering background and years as a Ham Radio operator and as an electronics enthusiast since the mid 1960's, still do make me question how and why a bit, but my experiences have trumped the incredulity that used to accompany the questions and has left me more willing to just try something rather than dismiss it out of hand...

Like Sheltie Dave, I once worried about trying to fit into my head and my world view all the reasons why different cables sounded different and reacted differently in different systems, but I outgrew that, and just learned to try it and see...if something makes a difference to me, then far out, if it doesn't then I don't go on and on and on and on about why you can't possibly believe that anything so asinine as changing a cable can make your system sound different because the measurements don't support that...baloney...

If it makes a difference to you then fine.

If it doesn't, or you can't hear it, then please, go about your merry business and leave alone those of us who are so deluded as to think that cables, or supports, or racks, or power conditioning, etc., can make a difference in our systems.

.

Has nothing to do with what sounds good to you in the context of the OP's post/question, IMO.

If it can be heard, it CAN be measured. What is measured may or may not have any correlation with what sounds good.

I think you far underestimate the power of todays analysis capabilities, but regardless of all that, measurements still never dictate preference. Although, some of Harman's work may be getting close to predicting what sound most people like from speakers.

Some like the sound with bass control at +11, who is to argue with their preference? Nobody.

Preference and measurement of why are two different things.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Has nothing to do with what sounds good to you.

If it can be heard, it CAN be measured. What is measured may or may not have any correlation with what sounds good.

I think you far underestimate the power of todays analysis capabilities, but regardless of all that, measurements still never dictate preference. Although, some of Harman's work may be getting close to predicting what sound most people like from speakers.

Some like the sound with bass control at +11, who is to argue with their preference? Nobody.

Preference and measurement of why are two different things.

That wasn't his point, he said "If it makes a difference to you..." meaning whether or not you can hear a difference, not whether or not you like what you're hearing. Yes if you can hear it there's a way to measure it, but again, if someone knows how to measure the differences we hear between cables that should, in theory, sound the same, then please explain it. Some of you keep saying the technology exists, but I have not seen one explanation of what one would measure or how one would measure it, or how the results would be interpreted.

 

[Brett]

Yes if you can hear it there's a way to measure it, but again, if someone knows how to measure the differences we hear between cables that should, in theory, sound the same, then please explain it. Some of you keep saying the technology exists, but I have not seen one explanation of what one would measure or how one would measure it, or how the results would be interpreted.

Or you (or whomever) could actually show that you can consistently hear the differences that are you say you are in a controlled test. RLC are easy to measure and model and the purported sonic differences outside of these things have never been established beyond anecdote.

It is very easy to measure even on a PC a couple of octaves above and below a humans range and to a depth of 120dB+, and even more on something like an AP.

It is up to those who make assertions outside of known science and engineering to back them up.

 

[Bigerik]

It is up to those who make assertions outside of known science and engineering to back them up.

In the scientific world, that maybe true. However, TOL is about personal experience, so the proving must go both ways.

 

[whoaru99]

That wasn't his point, he said "If it makes a difference to you..." meaning whether or not you can hear a difference, not whether or not you like what you're hearing. Yes if you can hear it there's a way to measure it, but again, if someone knows how to measure the differences we hear between cables that should, in theory, sound the same, then please explain it. Some of you keep saying the technology exists, but I have not seen one explanation of what one would measure or how one would measure it, or how the results would be interpreted.

I think I have previously mentioned the properties R, C, and L that affect the signal passing through the cable.

As to interpretation, these are the same properties used daily in speaker crossovers to tailor which frequencies go to which driver amongst other things, and countless other electrical devices. So, if we understand and manipulate how that works, how can it be said we don't know how these same properties affect the signal passing though a cable?

And, again, just because no one joining in on this discussion has mentioned the specific methodology of measuring these properties doesn't mean it can't and isn't being done. Note the Audioholics articles on cables et al. They are full of measurements of these three values, and often include calculations and measured frequency response graphs showing the effect.

RickB mentioned the countless combinations of gear that cloud the whole scenario and to some degree I agree. However, it is fairly well known too how the output and input characteristics of gear can affect interaction with cable properties. So, if one knows the cable properties, and the output/input characteristics of the gear, I think/believe that some correlations can be established and are already known.

AFAIK, the point of the OP's question, and my responses are not to suggest everyone forego listening and become "measurement uber alles". The point is that I don't believe there is as much mystique and uncertainty about cables as is often the opinion. If people/companies didn't/don't understand how it works, how would they be able to design something supposedly better or different sounding? By pure happenstance?

 

[Brett]

In the scientific world, that maybe true. However, TOL is about personal experience, so the proving must go both ways.

There is no need to prove electrical theory. There are vastly too many applications with cables that show exacting correspondence with theory in practice.
Besides you cannot prove a negative, ie there is no difference.

 

[sheltie dave]

Mr. Lin, this forum section is called "Thinking out Loud." There isn't much thinking going on if you have never viewed a Heyser plot, or tried to understand it, or wonder why sound engineers use it.

This AGAIN is a way to capture empirical data of differing cable performance in real time, incorporating time, frequency, intensity and phase.

What tests do you propose, or do you fall back to the "it can't be measured," except by the pocketbook? There you go, again.

 

[Bigerik]

Again, gents please refer to the forum rules. This forum is all about personal experience and is a flame free zone for any discussions about cables. ALL points of view may be freely discussed here.

 

[Tangent]

Or you (or whomever) could actually show that you can consistently hear the differences....

Have you ever heard your stereo and were dissatisfied and turned it off thinking there was something wrong? And the next day, were happy with it - yet you did not change a thing?

I have. Happened yesterday. I thought it sounded like crap. Midrange glare. Anemic bass. Arrrgh!!! Off to watch TV!

Tonight I'm cranking tunes like there is no tomorrow. But I guess I really must get some sleep sometime!

So did I show I heard a difference? Or was the human condition screwing me up? Which GaryP was right? Yesterday? Today?

Yet I know that my stereo sounds damm fine. Usually.

Can you show me a series of tests using placebos and real (whatever) that shows 100% accurate results?

 

[whoaru99]

80-90% would be enough for me to take notice.

 

[willysan]

Have you ever heard your stereo and were dissatisfied and turned it off thinking there was something wrong? And the next day, were happy with it - yet you did not change a thing?

I have. Happened yesterday. I thought it sounded like crap. Midrange glare. Anemic bass. Arrrgh!!! Off to watch TV!

Tonight I'm cranking tunes like there is no tomorrow. But I guess I really must get some sleep sometime!

So did I show I heard a difference? Or was the human condition screwing me up? Which GaryP was right? Yesterday? Today?

Yet I know that my stereo sounds damm fine. Usually.

Can you show me a series of tests using placebos and real (whatever) that shows 100% accurate results?

You certainly heard the difference but its origins could be traced to a certain state of mind. I´ve had those days. However, that difference doesn´t count from the design point of view. Engineering can´t take into account whether you´re sad or happy. That´s why we have systematic psychoacoustic tests and instruments. If many people agree that some change shows an improvement, we take it as valid result, although some person may disagree. Any perception is valid but not all of them can be related to technical stuff. Our mood is a powerful tool that can totally change the subjective perception of a sensorial stimulus and that´s why I prefer objective measurements, even though they´re far from being complete.

 

[Mr. Lin]

I think I have previously mentioned the properties R, C, and L that affect the signal passing through the cable.

Yes, you have, and so have others. My point was that those can only tell us so much. I don't think there's anything "mysterious" about it, I'm suggesting that there's a lot more to why and how cables perform beyond R, C, and L.

In the end, I don't have anything to prove to anyone. I've heard the differences, it's really not a debate for me anymore. It does surprise me that so many people still think the whole cable thing is bogus, or that we know everything there is to know about why things sound the way they do.

 

[Tangent]

You certainly heard the difference but its origins could be traced to a certain state of mind.

Completely agree.

Which is why if I get something new (wires, cables, CD player, whatever) I listen to it, then let it run for a few days and listen again. It gives (what I believe) to be a better perspective of what it really sounds like.

A/B tests or even blind testing are too quick for this application in my estimation. I need time.

Of course sometimes it's difficult NOT to toss those crappy wires in the trash right away.

 

[Brett]

Have you ever heard your stereo and were dissatisfied and turned it off thinking there was something wrong? And the next day, were happy with it - yet you did not change a thing?

Yes. It was mood, not the system.