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If you have tried a Loefgen B alignment

OK, I understand a little bit. I surely don't consider myself a big expert, or the last authority on Null Geometry.

All I know are some decent basics, and to re-hash,in that with a Pivotal Tonearm, and that with any null geometry, a Stylus can only ever be correctly positioned in the groove (Zenith Angle) at two points.

It was my understanding, that for those who play an LP from Start to Finish, that Standard Baerwald Alignment would be the best overall compromise. But, re-thinking some of this, that might not be entirely true? I'm of course not wishing to be ignorant on the topic, and say that Baerwald is the best choice for what I describe above?

Not if a higher degree of groove distortion occurs at the inner tracks of a record versus outer tracks.

As for what the null point differences are between Loefgren B, and UNI-DIN, I honestly cannot say?

In a nutshell, and there's probably some truth to this, there's probably no term of ever being "exactly perfect", not with a Pivotal Tonearm anyway.

Now as for the DB Systems Protractor. Hard to find info about this one, I looked, couldn't find, but might assume it's Baerwald Alignment.

Now as for other, less expensive Protractors that won't break the bank. Usually most of these are universal, meaning not Arm Specific Arc Types, but Sight Line designs.

I'll recommend the Turntable Basics as one very good sight line Protractor. Being a Mirror Type, it also helps aid in checking Azimuth Angle, which is a very important adjustment that you want to have as good as possible. The TB Protractor is what, only $15-$20 plus shipping, and I would say it's every bit equal to the MOFI Geodisc, and perhaps even better. (I also have both of these)

These types are I believe commonly Baerwald Null Geometry, often only have one Null Grid, where the other Null falls, that could possibly vary dependent upon the brand-model? (It shouldn't though in regards and according to proper Baerwald Specs)

Some are movable, with another Null Grid where you can again check if memory serves me correctly.

One good tip to help enhance the "sighting at the pivot" with a sight line Protractor, is to use a piece of thread stretched taught following the sight line and extending it to the Tonearm Pivot. Simple enough to do, with a Thread, and a couple of pieces of Cellophane Tape.

Hope this helps some.
 
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Using Lofgren.

DSC-0012.jpg
 
markd51 said:
OK, I understand a little bit. I surely don't consider myself a big expert, or the last authority on Null Geometry.

All I know are some decent basics, and to re-hash,in that with a Pivotal Tonearm, and that with any null geometry, a Stylus can only ever be correctly positioned in the groove (Zenith Angle) at two points.

It was my understanding, that for those who play an LP from Start to Finish, that Standard Baerwald Alignment would be the best overall compromise. But, re-thinking some of this, that might not be entirely true? I'm of course not wishing to be ignorant on the topic, and say that Baerwald is the best choice for what I describe above?

Not if a higher degree of groove distortion occurs at the inner tracks of a record versus outer tracks.

As for what the null point differences are between Loefgren B, and UNI-DIN, I honestly cannot say?

In a nutshell, and there's probably some truth to this, there's probably no term of ever being "exactly perfect", not with a Pivotal Tonearm anyway.

Now as for the DB Systems Protractor. Hard to find info about this one, I looked, couldn't find, but might assume it's Baerwald Alignment.

Now as for other, less expensive Protractors that won't break the bank. Usually most of these are universal, meaning not Arm Specific Arc Types, but Sight Line designs.

I'll recommend the Turntable Basics as one very good sight line Protractor. Being a Mirror Type, it also helps aid in checking Azimuth Angle, which is a very important adjustment that you want to have as good as possible. The TB Protractor is what, only $15-$20 plus shipping, and I would say it's every bit equal to the MOFI Geodisc, and perhaps even better. (I also have both of these)

These types are I believe commonly Baerwald Null Geometry, often only have one Null Grid, where the other Null falls, that could possibly vary dependent upon the brand-model? (It shouldn't though in regards and according to proper Baerwald Specs)

Some are movable, with another Null Grid where you can again check if memory serves me correctly.

One good tip to help enhance the "sighting at the pivot" with a sight line Protractor, is to use a piece of thread stretched taught following the sight line and extending it to the Tonearm Pivot. Simple enough to do, with a Thread, and a couple of pieces of Cellophane Tape.

Hope this helps some.
Click to expand...

The 2 point system will self align when the stylus/cantilever look identical at both null point positions. That is how the overhang and the offset angle are dialed in. I have designed an alignment tool sold under the Audio by Van Alstine brand, but now that I am retired, I don't want to get into that stuff anymore, and giving stuff away would not be fair to previous customers.

I think that you are aware of the things that are going on and you will be fine. And you are correct that no alignment is perfect, and we humans can get it close, but not right on and even if we did, you are correct again that at only 2 imaginary spots (the null points) is the stylus located in the groove correctly. Get it aligned as close as possible so that it sounds good thru the travel of the record side and call it a day. Set AS properly, get the arm parallel and then sit back and have fun.

PS, wife is from Manitowoc.
 
markd51 said:
OK, I understand a little bit. I surely don't consider myself a big expert, or the last authority on Null Geometry.

All I know are some decent basics, and to re-hash,in that with a Pivotal Tonearm, and that with any null geometry, a Stylus can only ever be correctly positioned in the groove (Zenith Angle) at two points.

It was my understanding, that for those who play an LP from Start to Finish, that Standard Baerwald Alignment would be the best overall compromise. But, re-thinking some of this, that might not be entirely true? I'm of course not wishing to be ignorant on the topic, and say that Baerwald is the best choice for what I describe above?

Not if a higher degree of groove distortion occurs at the inner tracks of a record versus outer tracks.

As for what the null point differences are between Loefgren B, and UNI-DIN, I honestly cannot say?

In a nutshell, and there's probably some truth to this, there's probably no term of ever being "exactly perfect", not with a Pivotal Tonearm anyway.

Now as for the DB Systems Protractor. Hard to find info about this one, I looked, couldn't find, but might assume it's Baerwald Alignment.

Now as for other, less expensive Protractors that won't break the bank. Usually most of these are universal, meaning not Arm Specific Arc Types, but Sight Line designs.

I'll recommend the Turntable Basics as one very good sight line Protractor. Being a Mirror Type, it also helps aid in checking Azimuth Angle, which is a very important adjustment that you want to have as good as possible. The TB Protractor is what, only $15-$20 plus shipping, and I would say it's every bit equal to the MOFI Geodisc, and perhaps even better. (I also have both of these)

These types are I believe commonly Baerwald Null Geometry, often only have one Null Grid, where the other Null falls, that could possibly vary dependent upon the brand-model? (It shouldn't though in regards and according to proper Baerwald Specs)

Some are movable, with another Null Grid where you can again check if memory serves me correctly.

One good tip to help enhance the "sighting at the pivot" with a sight line Protractor, is to use a piece of thread stretched taught following the sight line and extending it to the Tonearm Pivot. Simple enough to do, with a Thread, and a couple of pieces of Cellophane Tape.

Hope this helps some.
Click to expand...
Going from Stevenson to Baerwald was like night and day for me.
The difference was noticable right away. I may have to try the Baergren on my other cartridge at some point though.
 
WaynerN said:
The 2 point system will self align when the stylus/cantilever look identical at both null point positions. That is how the overhang and the offset angle are dialed in. I have designed an alignment tool sold under the Audio by Van Alstine brand, but now that I am retired, I don't want to get into that stuff anymore, and giving stuff away would not be fair to previous customers.

I think that you are aware of the things that are going on and you will be fine. And you are correct that no alignment is perfect, and we humans can get it close, but not right on and even if we did, you are correct again that at only 2 imaginary spots (the null points) is the stylus located in the groove correctly. Get it aligned as close as possible so that it sounds good thru the travel of the record side and call it a day. Set AS properly, get the arm parallel and then sit back and have fun.

PS, wife is from Manitowoc.
Click to expand...

Gotta agree though, Alignment is a very important step to good sound. And of course not to neglect other adjustments like VTA, VTF, Azimuth. So much going on, does it ever end?! LOL

There's the Turntable, Phono Stage, the choices of those, the Cartridge, Cabling, on and on to nirvana, or some facsimile thereof.

And of course in the end, record cleaning, and record quality. There's been more than a few re-issues I've bought, said to be great, and I thought otherwise. Maybe let's take a record like Steely Dan Aja. I bought a $3 mint original release from an antique shop in New Mexico that was very good, the re-issue from I forgot where I bought it not so much I thought. Some of my Mofi's, meh, OK, but. Were they worth the price of admission?

Manitowoc is still a fairly decent place, nice people, most are the salt of the earth, and so are the surrounding areas, like Kiel, New Holstein, Reedsville, Whitelaw, and others there. I wanna buy a nice little home with a little bit of land in a rural area there ASAP. I search every day for properties.

Hoping to find a place with a few acres of peace and serenity, and a nice great room-living room where my pair of JBL 4430's can strut their stuff. Also some room for my Drums, My Bass Amp, etc LOL

I don't so much mind smelling cow flop, and seeing crop dusters. Much better than seeing whackadoos, and convicts out on bail marching the streets, like in Chicago.

 
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Protractors. Have a couple. The Feikert clone that some guy was selling on eBay about a year ago. Same exact thing but less than half the cost. Works great. Posted about it here. Recently picked up the Dennessen Soundtractor. Similar concept different level of execution. The one mentioned earlier goes for stoopid money and is one of those things I laughed out loud when I first saw one. Try the DB Systems Protrac. Straight forward to use and costs a reasonable sum for what it does.
 
WaynerN said:
If your table can't reach a Lofgren B, I have invented a new alignment now called the Baergren (Baerwald + Lofgren). Its curves are smack dab in the middle of the 2 alignments.
Click to expand...

So, the Lofwald alignment is between the Lofgren B and Baerwald?

I don’t see any advantage other than those who want the Lofgren B but due to mechanical limitations, can’t achieve it.
 
I use the Lofgren B for aligning my Temaad 12'' Titanium arm. It definitely suits my listening as I mainly listen to classical that often does not have a lot of tracks per side. However I cannot understand why anyone would buy an alignment gauge as the most versatile by Conrad Hoffman is available as a FREE download from V/Engine.

Cheers
 
tabarddn51 said:
I use the Lofgren B for aligning my Temaad 12'' Titanium arm. It definitely suits my listening as I mainly listen to classical that often does not have a lot of tracks per side. However I cannot understand why anyone would buy an alignment gauge as the most versatile by Conrad Hoffman is available as a FREE download from V/Engine.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Yes absolutely tabarddn51. And when you start playing with that you can design as many different alignments as you want (or at least that can be accommodated within your arm geometry). In other words, as long as the arc is within the limits of your headshell / cartridge movement, Conrad's generator will plot the null points on that arc, and those points can be varied by playing around with your inner and outer groove measurements, or overhang and offset angle. Combine that with the Tonearm Alignment calculator on VE and you can experiment to your hearts content.
 
Hi Punk_Oldie, yes you are perfectly correct in what you say. BUT let's not confuse the beginners, virtually all tone arm manufacturers give a spindle to arm pivot distance they recommend. That should be followed & the cart overhang set to that alignment in the curve of your choice. Some manufactures do not have slotted head-shells, in that case the user needs to measure the distance between the stylus tip & tonearm pivot point, then this can be applied to Conrad's table to get the correct alignment. Not to fiddly doing it that way, I do it all the time.

Cheers Derek
 
HamboneF18 said:
For what arm? What standard of recording radii? Free from VE. Print your own. But you’ll need your PTS distance of your table.
Click to expand...

For the Conrad Hoffman Arc protractor, you’ll need what I said above. I use DIN radii. You’ll need your Pivot To Spindle (PTS) distance. Often found as your “Effective Length”, but you’ll have to subtract the Overhang Distance from it to get your PTS.
 
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