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Imaging

jozeppy26

Active Member
I have a question about imagine and basically what this should sound like. If I close my eyes, should it sound like a band is playing in front of me? But at a concert, the sound you hear is from speakers anyway, in fact the sound you hear from any instrument besides classical is from a speaker when heard live. So should imaging be like, “oh that sounds like the keyboard is playing out of that jbl speaker on the left of the stage about 3 feet up.”
 
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With the receiver set to stereo (as opposed to mono) and one speaker in front of you and slightly off to the right and the other speaker in front of you and slightly to the left. Equal spacing left to right from your ears, you will then get the benefits of stereo imaging. Simple as that. What should this sound like? I would say that the left and right, even though the signal is different, come together to form one sound stage.

"Sounds like keyboard is playing 3 feet up on the left out of that JBL spraker".....Uhhh, I think you are overthinking things.
 
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You should hear well defined instruments in different spots..it's pretty cool when it all works out like that.
I remember with one combo of gear on my puter setup, on some electronic music, There was a vocal line repeating that felt like it was swirling around my head..that was pretty cool and never recreated exactly.
 
You should hear well defined instruments in different spots..it's pretty cool when it all works out like that.
I remember with one combo of gear on my puter setup, on some electronic music, There was a vocal line repeating that felt like it was swirling around my head..that was pretty cool and never recreated exactly.

It was the gear or the... inhaled inspiration?
 
"Sounds like keyboard is playing 3 feet up on the left out of that JBL spraker".....Uhhh, I thing you are overthinking things.

Oh I definitely am. If it’s just what you said, doesn’t every speaker pair do this when positioned correctly?
 
The imaging on Roger Water's Amused To Death is probably the best I've ever heard, almost a surreal 3D space at times
 
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I’ve only just started listening to my music with my speakers and listening chair setup properly. One thing I’ve noticed with the music I love is that the better the imaging, the more you can hear the individual instruments and they are in a distinct space. It’s not a negative thing to experience but you realise it’s people on the end of microphones playing instruments.

Oddly enough I love to keep my eyes open and focus on centre stage. It’s weird listening to sound come directly from a space where you know your speakers are definitely not!
 
If you have a copy of Woodstock put on side five "Sly & The Family Stone". When he uses the PA system to engage the audience it's quite eerie. Depending on the stylus I'm using his voice either emanates from 6' left of the left speaker and about 8' high, or 6' left and slightly behind my left shoulder and again 8' high. The rest of the song is very holographic but this one bit really illustrates just how much your speakers can disappear.
 
I've found that there's basic imaging (singer's voice in the center) and it's easy to get with most any properly set up stereo rig. It's the depth, broadness, height, distinct instrument placement and spaciousness of the imaging that's much harder to obtain. It is there in most recordings and once you hear it you'll know it and it's pretty tough to go back from there to basic imaging.
 
Not all performances are from loudspeakers. If you could please find the LP or CD titled: "Jazz at the Pawn Shop", a Danish or Dutch recording, taken live in a small pub. The youtube link given below is just a sample, don't take it as the last word, get the LP or CD and play it thru a decent setup, then you tell us what imaging is. (btw, this is just one example out of many outstanding acoustic recordings)

https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-at-Pawnshop-VARIOUS-ARTISTS/dp/B003CF0XBG

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=OQwfBFqn-4g&usg=AOvVaw1eR7UsEwSmNFkKnC22W04K
 
What you're referring to is sometimes known as "mic'ed" recordings, where the recording comes through microphones into the mixing board (and hopefully not altered, ... much), then committed to the master.

Most recordings (including live) come through many cables and RF from microphones and instruments, some digital and some analog. Older of course entirely analog, but still many tracks.

The Engineer(s) then take this multi-track and create what sounds to them like they feel it should sound to you when you are listening at home or in your car (etc.). This will usually involve creating some "imaging" that is artificial, a slightly out-of-phase (delayed) decay from one channel to the other (which is what your brain uses to locate sound: the time delay and attenuation from the first-arrival sound to the second-arrival sound), they will put different instruments and voices where they feel they sound best, create delays, increase parts of the music frequency band to compensate for your system and listening level, compress the dynamic range so that you will hear all of the music even at low volume, etc., etc.

Now your system: If you play vinyl, you are creating an artificial soundstage with the out-of-phase cross-talk that is inherent in the single pointy thing in a molded groove playing two channels. If you are listening to dipolar speakers the reflected sound from the rear of the speakers creates a soundstage that isn't real, if you're playing any speakers in a room other than an anechoic room you have reflections.

Some vintage stereo gear (and some new) has "concert hall" modes etc. that manipulate the music to increase this soundstage (usually switchable).

Most people will change things around, move speakers, change equipment, and presume that the wider and more obvious the soundstage is, the better the system. Not necessarily true (and usually false).

So what does this mean to you? A lot, and nothing. What matters to most of us is what sounds good. I have friends with very good stereos set up badly, very mediocre stereos with the bass and treble pegged, friends who have dedicated listening rooms set up (almost) perfectly, and the happiest ones are those who don't worry about anyone else's opinion.

I like mic'ed classical as much as I do classic rock and jazz. For this I try to stay pure and flat, which should allow me to hear the music as the Engineer (or artist) intended it to sound. This is what I enjoy, if there isn't much "sound stage" in the original material then my system doesn't add any. If there is, I can hear instruments across the stage, beyond the width of the speakers' placement. To me this is imaging: reproduction of only what is in the recording. I can make this sound wider with a surround processor or with a nice set of Magnepan (or other), which is a pleasant sound, but it's not my flavor.

Imaging is created in the mixing board in almost all popular music, not real, how you want to hear it is up to you. Find a good mic'ed recording and start moving your equipment around until you like how it sounds. Some things will affect this negatively, speaker placement and listener position are probably the two most critical things, you will get better imaging from a decent pair of speakers placed properly than a great pair of speakers placed poorly.
 
I believe that what we audio fans have come to accept as "imaging" is the accurate placement of a given performer at a point in your listening space - "It sounds like Diana Krall is singing to me, and me only, over by the lamp."
But I think most recordings are engineered to put you there with the performers in your living room, and bear little resemblance to a live performance. Who wants Diana to be singing to all of those other guys?
And I wouldn't want it any other way. I find the performances more moving with close-mic recordings that pick up all of the human nuances often missed in big, live recordings. To me, it's a more intimate experience.
I might add that the great recording referenced by @travellersol above is available as a high definition download as well. Like all the good stuff, it aint cheap.
 
SaturationPt nailed it. On a good system you can hear different space for different instruments if recorded in a different space or with different added space. Studio recordings are a contrivance of the engineer.
 
That’s the one thing I’ve realised as I’ve gotten my speaker placement right. Generally the engineer places things off centre to separate them out (I assume). It’s not unpleasant, but it’s not not something you really can pick in the car or when your speakers are setup crap.
 
There is also Binaural recording -- I believe that is intended for headphones.

For stereo imaging, I have experience with vinyl. The speaker placement, the cartridge, the recording, and the mastering all play a part. Some make it really easy for the listener to achieve that euphoric sense of instrument placement (ex. Radiohead's Kid A), while most take a little bit of work.

For vinyl, the cartridge plays a larger part than any single part in a non-vinyl system.

My favorite speaker placement is with the right channel aimed at my right ear and the left channel slightly behind me. That could be the beating my ears take at concerts.

I am in a 300 sqft space.
 
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But at a concert, the sound you hear is from speakers anyway
That's one of the downsides of (sometimes poorly) amplified instrumentation in a band/orchestral setting.
In order for a concert or recording of a concert to emote sound stage requires precise engineering and placement of associated sound drivers.
This goes for live as well as recorded audio.
 
That’s the one thing I’ve realised as I’ve gotten my speaker placement right. Generally the engineer places things off centre to separate them out (I assume). It’s not unpleasant, but it’s not not something you really can pick in the car or when your speakers are setup crap.

In the car I use fake imaging, let the system use 5.1 surround mode, I'm only an audio purist/wannabe at home.
 
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