jozeppy26
Active Member
Well this certainly gives me a greater respect for the sound “guys.”
Imaging
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Well this certainly gives me a greater respect for the sound “guys.”
I agree with this, as once you hear it done properly it's very hard to listen to another setup that doesn't have it. Imaging and soundstage are what really got me hooked on the Polk SDA lineup.
When you get them setup properly and with a good recording, you can hear the placement of each instrument/voice all over the stage. It was the first time I listened to a stereo setup and didnt feel like there was just music coming from a left and right speaker but an actual band playing in front of me....hopefully that makes sense
Gazdatronik
Super Member
Imaging is sex. Most speakers are only capable of mere pornography.
Until you experience imaging, reading about it doesn't do it justice.
Its not just speakers' quality, although they need to be designed with imaging in mind, but so does the recording, and the room the speakers are in(not too many early reflections).
Until you experience imaging, reading about it doesn't do it justice.
Its not just speakers' quality, although they need to be designed with imaging in mind, but so does the recording, and the room the speakers are in(not too many early reflections).
ragtopolds6
Active Member
hum imaging ...so I recently acquired a pair of Alison ic 10 speakers....so of coarse I had to read up on design etc...roy Allison king of imaging..imho after reading and hearing the ic 10s imaging should sound like... you see the speakers you hear the music but you cant really tell there together...I don't know maybe smoke another...lol
Soundstage and imaging are two different things and in some cases opposite requirements.
I won't pretend to know everything about imaging. You can know a lot about it, then you talk with someone who makes his living creating professional (studios, venues, theaters, arenas, large churches et al) and it humbles you (my Brother-in-law, degree, patents, 35years' experience, studio work, owns the company, licensed pro-equipment dealer, etc.).
Soundstage can be created by a speaker, or it can be presented accurately. It is however hard to create imaging.
Some speakers create soundstage, mostly I would categorize dipolar, open baffle, other speakers that purposely create a 2nd-arrival sound (reflected from back wall etc.) by design. Some speakers create soundstage by reflection from a side wall or ceiling. Many people very much like this effect and will never own speakers (or place speakers) that do not have this quality. It is a very immersive and lovely effect and anyone who is too pure to enjoy it, ... well to each his own.
Other speakers are designed very carefully to prevent this effect.
Any speaker should be "flat" within its frequency range (+/- dB). But there are other factors that are important also. In a 3-way speaker you have the complication of the HF and Mid coupling (phase response etc.) that you do not have in a 2-way, typically these are oriented vertically so that the sweet-spot is wider, but it isn't usually very tall. If you are in the correct vertical orientation you will hear the music correctly (typically with your ears exactly between an imaginary line straight out of the voice coils of each driver), as you move vertically then you will have phase shifts of these (short wavelength) higher frequencies changing how the music is processed by your brain. Further, in a 3-way, a crossover network changes the phase of the sound (which is part of how it attenuates or "cuts off" the unwanted frequencies) near the cutoff frequency, something that the manufacturer (should) consider in where to cross over the speaker. Professional monitors are designed to be very flat, to have a very good off-axis response, and to prevent changing anything in the music. To some who like the added reflected sound and delays that create soundstage this can sound lifeless in comparison in a room without reflections. To those of us who like un-colored music, it is as perfect as we can get.
So imaging is created by excellent timing of the music (lack of phase shift) especially in the higher frequencies where timing is most important to the brain. If your room has a lot of reflection, this imaging is better served by a very directional speaker, so that the reflected sound ("2nd arrival sound) is much quieter and essentially ignored by the brain. Proper phase response from the crossovers at critical frequencies will further help to maintain this imaging, if there is a phase shift in the middle of a clarinet's range then it certainly won't stay in the right place, ... This is why large line-array speakers are used in places like churches (very reflective); so that the sound can be focused and have dead-areas where it would otherwise reflect back into the audience. Good studio monitors are also designed to be in less than perfect environments and to be somewhat immune to the effect of reflected sound (which is why I like them so much as home speakers).
Imaging is placement of the instruments. The brain takes the very slight change in timing (which is also known as phase-shift) between the arrival at one ear, and the slightly later arrival at the other ear to determine on which side the source is, and how far over. If this phase-shift / timing changes as the pitch changes (lowest to highest key on the piano for example) then the source is moving, and the brain will likely not be able to place it. If the phase shift is bad enough then there is no location at all to the brain.
Soundstage is different, it can have all of the nasty imaging "don't-dos" and still have great soundstage. If the sound is reflected without nasty phase shifts, it bounces back to your ear later and gives you that lovely concert-hall effect. Kind of like why reverb circuits have been in car radios since before WWII, makes it sound like a much larger space as if your room doesn't have walls and two speakers. This is a natural effect of speakers such as Martin-Logan, Magnepan, many others with dipolar or open-baffle, Bob Carver's first speakers actually had ceiling-firing tweeters and mids to create this effect for example (Phase Linear IIRC). Bose is famous (or infamous) for creating "soundstage" with reflected sound. If you have a line-array with good off-axis response (to the sides) much of this same effect is created by speaker placement using side walls and sometimes even a rear wall to reflect back delayed sound. Tuning this with placement can give great results and make your sound seem more "live". Most speakers' vertical response is not very good however, especially 3-way line-array, so you can't expect the ceiling and floor to do anything good, and when this gets to the back wall it can really muddy the sound. Fortunately the long path that this takes in most rooms causes it to lose enough energy to not be significant.
The combination of good imaging (proper phase response, proper timing of all frequencies at the listeners' ears) and soundstage really seems to enhance the feeling of imaging for some reason, but not all speakers can deliver both. Imaging from a good speaker can be destroyed by not having the listener (or speaker) in the right orientation, or by reflecting the wrong sounds back to the listener. Similarly, soundstage can be enhanced by placement & room characteristics, or it can be destroyed.
So to those of us who like what we hear from our super nice speakers in our room with parallel walls and furniture, ignorance truly is bliss and the added or altered soundstage and somewhat tilted imaging is just wonderful, ... don't change a thing.
For those of us looking for perfect accuracy OTOH, it's a quest. When a pro goes into a large space to spec a system it takes a good deal of instrumentation just to measure reflections, standing waves and decay, distances and positions, and match the equipment to the needs of the audience. We who place our system along a wall in a small room with furniture and people standing/sitting/moving can start by auditioning systems to see if we like the effect of open-baffle/dipolar/etc. soundstage or not, then pick the speaker system that matches your taste and start the journey of placement in your room. There is no right or wrong for how you like to hear your music, whether it's scalpel-accurate or lots of added soundstage, just whether it gives you pleasure or not.
I won't pretend to know everything about imaging. You can know a lot about it, then you talk with someone who makes his living creating professional (studios, venues, theaters, arenas, large churches et al) and it humbles you (my Brother-in-law, degree, patents, 35years' experience, studio work, owns the company, licensed pro-equipment dealer, etc.).
Soundstage can be created by a speaker, or it can be presented accurately. It is however hard to create imaging.
Some speakers create soundstage, mostly I would categorize dipolar, open baffle, other speakers that purposely create a 2nd-arrival sound (reflected from back wall etc.) by design. Some speakers create soundstage by reflection from a side wall or ceiling. Many people very much like this effect and will never own speakers (or place speakers) that do not have this quality. It is a very immersive and lovely effect and anyone who is too pure to enjoy it, ... well to each his own.
Other speakers are designed very carefully to prevent this effect.
Any speaker should be "flat" within its frequency range (+/- dB). But there are other factors that are important also. In a 3-way speaker you have the complication of the HF and Mid coupling (phase response etc.) that you do not have in a 2-way, typically these are oriented vertically so that the sweet-spot is wider, but it isn't usually very tall. If you are in the correct vertical orientation you will hear the music correctly (typically with your ears exactly between an imaginary line straight out of the voice coils of each driver), as you move vertically then you will have phase shifts of these (short wavelength) higher frequencies changing how the music is processed by your brain. Further, in a 3-way, a crossover network changes the phase of the sound (which is part of how it attenuates or "cuts off" the unwanted frequencies) near the cutoff frequency, something that the manufacturer (should) consider in where to cross over the speaker. Professional monitors are designed to be very flat, to have a very good off-axis response, and to prevent changing anything in the music. To some who like the added reflected sound and delays that create soundstage this can sound lifeless in comparison in a room without reflections. To those of us who like un-colored music, it is as perfect as we can get.
So imaging is created by excellent timing of the music (lack of phase shift) especially in the higher frequencies where timing is most important to the brain. If your room has a lot of reflection, this imaging is better served by a very directional speaker, so that the reflected sound ("2nd arrival sound) is much quieter and essentially ignored by the brain. Proper phase response from the crossovers at critical frequencies will further help to maintain this imaging, if there is a phase shift in the middle of a clarinet's range then it certainly won't stay in the right place, ... This is why large line-array speakers are used in places like churches (very reflective); so that the sound can be focused and have dead-areas where it would otherwise reflect back into the audience. Good studio monitors are also designed to be in less than perfect environments and to be somewhat immune to the effect of reflected sound (which is why I like them so much as home speakers).
Imaging is placement of the instruments. The brain takes the very slight change in timing (which is also known as phase-shift) between the arrival at one ear, and the slightly later arrival at the other ear to determine on which side the source is, and how far over. If this phase-shift / timing changes as the pitch changes (lowest to highest key on the piano for example) then the source is moving, and the brain will likely not be able to place it. If the phase shift is bad enough then there is no location at all to the brain.
Soundstage is different, it can have all of the nasty imaging "don't-dos" and still have great soundstage. If the sound is reflected without nasty phase shifts, it bounces back to your ear later and gives you that lovely concert-hall effect. Kind of like why reverb circuits have been in car radios since before WWII, makes it sound like a much larger space as if your room doesn't have walls and two speakers. This is a natural effect of speakers such as Martin-Logan, Magnepan, many others with dipolar or open-baffle, Bob Carver's first speakers actually had ceiling-firing tweeters and mids to create this effect for example (Phase Linear IIRC). Bose is famous (or infamous) for creating "soundstage" with reflected sound. If you have a line-array with good off-axis response (to the sides) much of this same effect is created by speaker placement using side walls and sometimes even a rear wall to reflect back delayed sound. Tuning this with placement can give great results and make your sound seem more "live". Most speakers' vertical response is not very good however, especially 3-way line-array, so you can't expect the ceiling and floor to do anything good, and when this gets to the back wall it can really muddy the sound. Fortunately the long path that this takes in most rooms causes it to lose enough energy to not be significant.
The combination of good imaging (proper phase response, proper timing of all frequencies at the listeners' ears) and soundstage really seems to enhance the feeling of imaging for some reason, but not all speakers can deliver both. Imaging from a good speaker can be destroyed by not having the listener (or speaker) in the right orientation, or by reflecting the wrong sounds back to the listener. Similarly, soundstage can be enhanced by placement & room characteristics, or it can be destroyed.
So to those of us who like what we hear from our super nice speakers in our room with parallel walls and furniture, ignorance truly is bliss and the added or altered soundstage and somewhat tilted imaging is just wonderful, ... don't change a thing.
For those of us looking for perfect accuracy OTOH, it's a quest. When a pro goes into a large space to spec a system it takes a good deal of instrumentation just to measure reflections, standing waves and decay, distances and positions, and match the equipment to the needs of the audience. We who place our system along a wall in a small room with furniture and people standing/sitting/moving can start by auditioning systems to see if we like the effect of open-baffle/dipolar/etc. soundstage or not, then pick the speaker system that matches your taste and start the journey of placement in your room. There is no right or wrong for how you like to hear your music, whether it's scalpel-accurate or lots of added soundstage, just whether it gives you pleasure or not.
Last edited:
ragtopolds6
Active Member
well put...lol that's what I said...lol