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IMF owners thread!

Hey Jim,

Which might be fun to do, see what would come of it. And then make them available to IMF TLS 80 owners. But at this point, it's moot. Hopefully soon my pair will be going to live in a new home.

Biggles

Your pair with the Hiquphon tweeters probably sounds better then with the original tweeters.
I have been listening to the Fried oem Hiquphon tweeters since the early 1990's in several sets of speakers.
 
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Hey Jim,

Your comment means a lot to me. I thought so too, but it's darned near impossible to pass that kind of knowledge without experiencing them yourself. Thank you sir!

Biggles
 
Your pair with the Hiquphon tweeters probably sounds better then with the original tweeters.
I have been listening to the Fried oem Hiquphon tweeters since the early 1990's in several sets of speakers.

I always wanted to harvest my hiquphon from some linn's I had for the IMF but sold the LINNS.....man those are nice tweeters.
 
New/first time IMF owner here!!!

So I got a pair of TLS-80IIs that have been recapped by previous owner.. I want to open them up to inspect the work, parts, and make sure he got the two caps by input terminal... Now surprisingly, I cannot find ANY pictures of the inside of the TLS-80IIs. To access the crossover and input terminal, should I remove just the B139? Or should I remove the entire front baffle? (there are screws around the edge of the front baffle, making me assume it can be removed rather easily)

I cannot find any good pics on AK or online.. There have been a couple of threads, but all the pic links are down. So, is it okay to remove the entire front baffle?
 
Hi,welcome to the IMF familly and for your question,the baffle is glue so you have to take out the woofer to be able to check the inside (X-over).
 
So original the baffled was glue? Wonder why there are screws around the edges of the baffle, but it is not like this on other IMF models
 
Congrats on the find, for some reason I feel like I've seen those IMFs before with that modification. I'm almost positive I have.. but, can't recall where. Either way, that's good they sound great.

Within the last 3-4 years, There were a couple of pairs of IMF TLS80 MkII done with single tweeter and occasionally double tweeter replacements being sold on the east coast (Maryland or Pennsylvania IIRC) that were listed on eBay or US AudioMart (and by Extension Canuck AudioMart) that had similar mods. The listings stayed up for a few months or so. May also have been done to a lone RSPM or TLS50 as well.

Most of these mods, IMO are because of the relative difficulty or sourcing the original Celestion HF1300 / HF2000 tweeters or similar Coles tweeters, and mostly because of the expense of obtaining from the UK. The original drivers Are a complicated dual tweeter solution that was implemented at the time, but as pointed out, there were few tweeters of the day that could reliably cover a wide HF spectrum with good power handling and I suspect there was a reluctance to just use KEF tweeters like everyone else or they couldn't get them at the costs they wanted.

John Wright, the IMF designer, was no slouch at designing TL speakers and crossovers, but he was limited to what was available in the UK market, and like many UK companies, was reluctant to use Euro drivers like the Peerless or Audax rectangular faced tweeters of the TLS50 and ALS / Compact series. I suspect that to sell the bigger home speakers to the domestic market, the use of well known all UK sourced drivers was needed. Later his contract as TDL with ELAC made purpose built copies of various midtweeters and tweeters available for use. Certainly more capable drivers were used in later TDL speakers.

The IMFs also represent Wrights ideas about crossover theory - 12 and 18db slopes with EQ and level matching built in. The drivers do overlap at crossover points but not very far so as to protect the upper drivers against going down too low. The TLS domestic series were somewhat simplified versions of the very complicated RSPM crossovers. And yes, most UK speaker makers of that era used ferrite or steel cored inductors and were well aware of the issues with core saturation, hysteresis, and distortion issues. Most of the designers coming from a BBC engineering background felt that the ferrite inductors, used within their power handling specs worked and sounded just as good as air cores, while the air cores represented a huge investment in cost, real estate, and weight by having to use much larger wire and coils for the same size inductor. And yes, cost always plays a role in the commercial and practical development and production of a speaker. It is the same reason why that era of British designers used NP electrolytic caps in most parts of their crossovers, unable to justify the expense of banks and banks of multiple film caps that would otherwise have been needed.

The other issue for IMFs is the designs represent the trade off of efficiency and sensitivity for response flatness. TL's with those era drivers are inherently insensitive, using relatively "slow" and heavy polystyrene, damped Bextrene and limited output tweeters in a quest for flat power and frequency response. Complicated crossovers also represented insertion loss. British domestic and studio environments were relatively modest and high output was not a huge requirement for most - also, quality high power amps were few in that era and slow to come into the UK market.

Quality UK speakers of that era, with few exceptions, were designed with a typical British reserve and politeness, decrying in review after review any speaker with a pronounced, forward, or shouty midrange like most "HiFi" speakers on the domestic or rock n roll market. Many subscribed to the "BBC dip" type midrange sound and most used Bextrene mids. The more brash late 70's speakers like the Celestion Ditton 66 was designed a lot more like their American counterparts, and in some cases, received the same polite but dismissive reviews that American speakers got - efficient, loud, but not for the "discriminating or sophisticated" British listener. Yes, there was a lot of reviewer bias, snobbery, and UK homerism in those days as any perusal of the many UK HiFi press would show. It wasn't until big power became available and speakers like the Meridian M2 and M20, KEF 105 and 104/2, and various Linn and Spendor models would show stout output with smooth frequency response.
 
For Dr. Biggles, as he may know, Bozaks are a completely different design philosophy. Rudy Bozak, grew up and worked in the theatre sound industry with Cinadudgraph so was well versed with light efficient paper cone woofers, paper and aluminum mids and tweeters in relatively large ported or sealed cabinets. His reference music was orchestral and classical music of the east coast flavor but with dynamics and transient response of modern horn and direct radiator theatre systems. As such, he designed in the 50's through 70's with fairly minimalistic 6db slope crossovers which allowed a lot of overlap and interaction between drivers, much like the popular Altec and JBL speakers of the same era, but an East Coast bias to the sound, less of a forward midrange and less tizz at the top.

Rudy also used simply a couple of air coils and a bank of paper caps for his crossovers, so very little insertion loss, and less ESR in the capacitor system. IMHO, this was done much more on an aural listening basis rather than a strict engineering basis, although I'm sure there were plenty of calculations used.

So there's a lot to be said for Bozak's design philosophy and his distillation of crossover design. His drivers sound pretty "natural" but like most paper cone drivers, have some peaky responses that go along with good transient and attack responses. Part of that "natural" sound may be fortuitous harmonics that the drivers put forth which happen to sound good to our ears, euphonic coloration to use a tube amp / preamp term - not necessarily "accurate" or "flat frequency response" but good sounding nonetheless.

Different strokes for different folks and that's what make audio so interesting to explore.

By the way Biggles, I assume you've seen all these Hoffman Forum and AK threads on the Tobin mods to Bozak crossovers?
 
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Good Morning Mech986,

Thank you so much for taking the time to lay all that down. I know what it takes and generally speaking one's words just slip into obscurity with no nods of appreciation.

I understand your words about the decisions behind why the IMF designers/engineers did what they did. How can they get what they want out of the drivers and design without breaking the bank, not an easy feat. I have no issue with using electrolytics in crossovers. However, it did make me a little pissy to have to send away to the UK for electrolytics. But as you know, I did it anyway and got the job done.

I'm quite familiar with Pat Tobin's work on Rudy's N10102 3-way crossover. I think I've done about 10 pairs, so far. 2 pairs went to friends. On my first pair I found working within the confines of the original board and parts a bit cumbersome. It was easier for me to make everything from new, cut new boards and only use the original Bozak inductors. You can find a mod that Retrovert and I came up with on Pat's design here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ot-living-up-to-the-hoopla-a-solution.736070/ A month ago I finished building a pair of Symphonys from scratch, even sourced the correct 16ohm B199's and B800A 8" mids. While the original B200Y aluminum cone tweeter does what it does with great precision, I wanted something more modern. So, I'm now integrating brand new, out of the box SEAS tweeters into my Bozak builds. Unfortunately, the Symphonys are too large for my living room. The bass doesn't develop properly and they were disassembled. So, right now I'm in the process of building a pair of B302A's from scratch with non-factory cabinets. I've completed other Bozak upgrades/restorations/builds as well. In fact, that's how I got these IMF's. I traded a pair of vintage DIY B302A's that I restored/upgraded. We did a shootout in an afternoon and the Bozaks won, so the trade happened. I did it because I thought I could sell the IMF's easier than the Bozaks. It doesn't seem to matter how great the Bozaks are done, they can be a tough sell. Or at least they go for very little. I'm sure you know, but the Bozak B199 isn't a true paper coned woofer. It does have paper pulp in it, but it's also got wool in there.

For you and anyone else who reads my comments, I want to make something perfectly clear. I agree with everyone's reviews on these speakers. I am not looking for anything better, I'm looking for something different.

Biggles
 
IMFs have a particular flavour, and in general, that flavour is to be.. flavourless. The hallmark of the IMF sound is in its neutrality. To be free from coloration in all parts of the sound, with a true, full range frequency response capable of reproducing the most demanding music. If this is what you are looking for, IMFs may just be one of the best vintage speakers you can find doing that. And I think that's the biggest compliment you can give them, is that if you want that kind of sound, IMF speakers should be at the top of your list.

But, like yourself Biggles I ended up looking for something different. It's probably obvious but I sold my IMFs some time ago, and have owned the TLS 50 II, TLS 80 II and RSPM Mk IV as well as the Super Compacts. They're all very good and in the several years I lived with them, very much enjoyed them, but after some time I realized it was something else I wanted. I still have a fondness for them, and may own another pair one day but once I heard Wharfedale W90s and the seductive character they were capable of it was pretty much game over for me. So I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not surprised you would be looking for something different, because I think we have similar tastes. However, I do know that hearing IMF speakers is a worthwhile expedition so I am happy you are able to experience that, even if for a short while.
 
Hey Big(g)s, I agree. In my best Obi Wan Kenobi voice:

"These speakers aren't the ones you're looking for."
 
Hey Canuck,

I'm really glad I got to hear them as well, it's been a huge listening experience. Even more than that, it was a grand learning experience hearing the 302A's and the IMF's in someone else's living room with others to cast in their thoughts and opinions on what they're hearing. Sitting on our own living room, by ourselves, with our own equipment and music choices, we can only go so far. I say, grab your speakers and head out the front door. Find other AK members, find friends who are willing to play. Go out and gather some working knowledge of you speakers in other people's homes.

Hey Big(g)s, I agree. In my best Obi Wan Kenobi voice:

"These speakers aren't the ones you're looking for."

BAM, nailed it.

Biggles
 
Well Parts came for the CM2's

Sounds good, bass is more controlled and mids are smoother, but the highs seem a little bright, but this is the speaker with the new tweeter. I'll see how the other speaker sounds with the original tweeter inlace.

If I like it better I might have to put the old tweeter back in, I repaired the broken connection to the voice coil.

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Nashou, where did you source the caps from, Falcon? Interesting mix of Solens and Clarity cap.


Yes, Falcon. 45 bucks shipped. They added more caps that they carry and I think they had Solen and Clarity make special values for them.
I asked for a film set and he said I was the first to ask! ;) So I had to order individually. Just finished up the second speaker before I came to work and
it matches the first speaker I did with the new tweeter perfectly to my ears.

I need to hook them up to my main system so I can evaluate them more.

nashou
 
Hey Nash,

Give the new tweeter a day or 3 for your psyche to adjust to it. It takes a bit for your brain to decide what it's hearing and how to deal with it.

Biggles
 
Nice job Athanasios + you didn't break the bank,look at the size compare to before look more healthy and I'M sure you will not regret the move,Yvan.
 
Has anyone had a chance to compare the Seas 19TFF1 to the Celestion HF2000 ? My TLS-80IIs have the Seas installed as the super tweeters, but I do have an extra pair of HF2000s available. I would have to make some adjustments to swap in the HF2000s, which is the reason I am asking the question before just testing/trying myself... FalconAcoustics recommends using the Seas as a replacement to the Coles 4001
 
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