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improving bass on Cornwall II ?

bolero

bolero

Super Member
Wondering what I can do to improve the low end on my Cornwalls?

I have been running a pair of subs at very low level to fill out the bass. But only 1 of my amps has a center channel out ( my oldest amp: a Fisher 400 from the 60's! )

According to spec, they go down to 40 Hz. Which seems to match what I'm hearing. If I put another woofer in there, can I extend to low end down to 20Hz?

Eminence Kappa 15C is a popular replacement, but spec sheet says it only goes to 63Hz:

https://eminence.com/products/kappa_15c

Thanks!
 
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Yeah I was also wondering about checking/testing the crossover wiring. The fellow I bought them from said the crossover caps had been updated. Otherwise the speakers sound great.
 
Usable Freq range 63hz to 2.8khz :no: how does that help deep Bass?
Do some work on the Cabinets especially the earlier series..
a 400 Fisher is a bit down on power to really dig deep.
 
bolero,
you are comparing small bookshelves to Big efficient Cornwalls?
I think you're missing the point.
That fisher 400 receiver, My second tube amp ever, sorry I sold it.
Is a Bass monster. even though it's only 15-17 watts on a good day!
If you're not getting good bass on the Cornwalls,
there's either something wrong with the Fisher,
OR, like it was mentioned before, the woofers in the CW's are out of phase
or something else going on.
 
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The Eminence Kappa 15C is the wrong woofer for Cornwall as the xmax on that woofer is insufficient for a ported cabinet. Point of fact I use these (4 ohm version) woofers in my Belle Klipsch but they work there as the xmax in a horn loaded cab (where the woofers basically move very little, even at high output) isn't a factor, and the elevated output of the Kappa 15C approaching the midrange aids with the "suckout" that occurs in the lower mids in the Belle Klipsch normally.

I like the Crites 1526 (stamped basket) in a Cornwall, it's even better if you dampen those woofer baskets once determined that you like them, digs nice and deep and has a slight advantage in tuning in a Cornwall cab over a K33 - they are very close and come from the same place but the 1526 in a Cornwall is a really good "fit". Their natural resonance is at 29hz IIRC.

I read somewhere here of someone using Clare woofers but don't know much about those otherwise. I pretty much looked/stayed with Eminence woofers as candidates for replacement and don't find them bass lacking and they dig nice and deep....this after a number of years on that "other forum" watching others do this stuff and taking advice from people who had forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever know.
 
I've not seen it mentioned but have you recently gotten the Cornwalls and they replaced something else? What did you have before? What size room are they in? Carpeted or hard wood/tile floors? Is the room lively or lots of drapes, cloth couches, etc? You're not going to get 20hz of low end out of Cornwalls no matter what you do to them without adding some kind of sub(s) that can play that low be it horn loaded bass or some other type of powered large subs. Room acoustics are going to play a huge role. Changing crossover caps is going to do nothing for bass response, either. With Sonicaps, it could potentially make them seem like they have less bass as those are known as rather bright caps....like Solen.
 
Nyjblbob said:
bolero,
you are comparing small bookshelves to Big efficient Cornwalls?
I think you're missing the point.
That fisher 400 receiver, My second tube amp ever, sorry I sold it.
Is a Bass monster. even though it's only 15-17 watts on a good day!
If you're not getting good bass on the Cornwalls,
there's either something wrong with the Fisher,
OR, like it was mentioned before, the woofers in the CW's are out of phase
or something else going on.
Click to expand...

No, I have been using multiple amps & the Cornwalls are consistent with all of them. I was using subs with the 400 as it has a center channel out.

The JBL L26's have more low end than the Cornwalls

The Dynaudio's have more low end than the Cornwalls

Reading the comments above, and after checking the specs on my other speakers, I suspect something with the internal wiring/crossover. The external wiring is correct, I double checked speakers-->amp connections.

Thanks everyone! It will take me a bit to get into them as they are under my other speakers etc
 
bolero said:
The JBL L26's have more low end than the Cornwalls

The Dynaudio's have more low end than the Cornwalls
Click to expand...

This was my take on the pair of '78 Cornwalls I owned for a short time. They just didn't work in the living room in our last house and the Epic CF-3's, with dual 10" woofers, sounded a TON better so the CW's were sold off. I'd also changed out the caps as they tested out of spec and I also installed Crites CT120 tweeters. They sounded ok but bass was anemic in that room in comparison.
 
One of the things rarely mentioned is cabinet boom or resonance. This is a problem with the La Scalas until they went with 1" sides and the CW's. The CW 4's for instance have a two by four at the 10:00 and 2:00 position about 2" out from the woofer cutout and screwed in to the front and back sides to kill the resonance. You may not realize how much bass you lose at higher volumes because it is masked with unwanted cabinet resonance. Klipsch knew this was a problem and by the late 80's were putting front to back sides bracing in things like the KP-450 and KP-456.

I am not a fan of the CW's and avoid them when I am looking for old speakers to refurbish and hunt for Chorus speakers instead.
 
When I see the bass complaints re: Cornwall I figure it's due to one of two things:

1) Odd room which has acoustic issues/nulls that affect the low end performance

2) Unrealistic expectations as to how much bass is really "proper"/existing in the program material. I find that most I see set up bass/subs by the "earball" test (just listening by ear to set that level) they end up with too much/heavy footed/etc etc. Most people overestimate how much bass level is proper in program material compared to everything else in the spectrum.

Cornwalls DO go down into the 30s and point of fact one of the reasons the I like the Cornwall so much is that it CAN and DOES whereas the Belles/LaScalas don't. There were so many tradeoffs I bought both :-)

Full day spent with both systems yesterday and had fun comparing these two again.....
 
IMHO, there aren't many, if any, full range speakers that don't benefit from the correct sub integration. My Corwall 2's, with pro 15 drivers, still need and benefit from a great sub, even if that sub is only handling small amounts of content from say 60hz and down for the Cornwalls. Just because it's rated and tested to go down to a certain level, doesn't mean that it should, for optimal performance. Specs, from any speaker manufacturer are supposed to lure you into the purchase, but the curves on the drivers, placed in a certain cabinet, have much narrower limitations when keeping those drivers performing at optimal levels. Again, just my opinion, but I have done tons of A/B, A/B/C listening, with full range speakers rated quite low, including the Corns and others, with and without, performance subs, and have never chosen any of them without a sub.

Just my .02 worth.
 
bolero said:
Wondering what I can do to improve the low end on my Cornwalls?

I have been running a pair of subs at very low level to fill out the bass. But only 1 of my amps has a center channel out ( my oldest amp: a Fisher 400 from the 60's! )

According to spec, they go down to 40 Hz. Which seems to match what I'm hearing. If I put another woofer in there, can I extend to low end down to 20Hz?

Eminence Kappa 15C is a popular replacement, but spec sheet says it only goes to 63Hz:

https://eminence.com/products/kappa_15c

Thanks!
Click to expand...
For about a year or so D.B. Keele Jr. worked for Paul Klipsch (it was Keele who designed the constant directivity horn which revolutionized the pro loudspeaker industry and also won an Oscar for JBL) and during that time he was tasked to see if he could improve upon the bass alignment of the Cornwall cabinet which had been designed without the benefits of T/S alignment techniques. Keele designed the original CD horns for Electrovoice Altec and JBL .After doing an analysis he told Paul that the cabinet was perfect as it was and that it was best to leave the design as it was. It is its bass which has kept the Cornwall in production for so many decades and why it is so popular. The Cornwall bass cabinet is not broken and you are not going to improve upon it, P.W. Klipsch nailed the design and D.B. Keele confirmed that fact. What more could you ask for? If you want lower bass extension buy some powered sub woofers but leave the Cornwall alone.
 
I run a Sansui G9000DB with Cornwalls and an RSL Speedwoofer 10S (speaker level input) per side. In truth, 98% of the time, the Speedwoofers are just useless appendages after I found out what was "wrong" with my bass.

1. Every screw in my Cornwalls needed tightening. I now do it annually.
2. They were dancing around on my hardwood floor. Now, they're coupled.
3. I was looking for bass that didn't exist in source material.

Once I fixed that? All is well.

I hope your situation is easily remedied.
 
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