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Improving the Fisher 400

BTW- How I ended up with the Fisher 400

I was looking for a tube receiver. Being a DIYer, I looked at a lot of design parameters. I preferred more watts over PP 6BQ5 although 6BQ5s are good sounding tubes.

I looked at multiplexer, that about sealed the deal- Fisher. I could install a modern IC based multiplexer in something else, but........ I like causual FM & NYC has some high quality FM stations. Next was PI. I do not care for 6U8s, 7199s, etc. Triode type is lower risk IMO. Plus, I like cathodyne phase inverters. Then, rest of tube line up. 12AX7s- good deal. Plus, 7868s are good sounding tubes. Look at all three Fishers and I liked the fixed bias.

I searched for the most mint condition 400 I could find. Bingo. A stored unit from a collector. It appears my Fisher 400 was used for two years & packed away. Then, after hearing it I rolled tubes for best sonics. Once that was determined, I bought 30 years of NOS spare tubes. I went after the PS and refreshed the caps plus added a choke for good design. Here I am.

Now, I find your posts- just ACES. This almost is too good to be true. :D
 
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Errors

I have caught a small error on my schematic, which has now been corrected, and re-posted here. The power amplifier input jack has a 1 meg resistor connected across it so that the input grid always references ground, even if there is no source connected, or the source does not provide a DC path for the grid to reference ground through. This resistor was omitted on the original schematic, and has been added to the updated copy posted here.

Also, as a result of Larry's question, I have clarified that the 10.2K resistance he was questioning is in fact the measured primary impedance of the Fisher "AX" output transformers.

Finally, the screen voltage is listed on this schematic as 312 vdc, while on the EFB schematic (posted in that thread), it is shown as 315 vdc. The discrepancy is due to the fact that the 315 volt listing on the EFB schematic was a general target level, while the 312 vdc shown on this schematic is the actual voltage produced from the components used. The difference between the target and actual voltages produced is negligible. Both schematics should have the screen voltage shown as 312 vdc.

I apologize for any confusion this has caused.

Dave
 

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Oh, I paid no attention to it as my Fisher 400 shows a 500K volume pot vs input jack. Input jack is before the tone stack. Thanks.
 
It is unusually high for a fixed bias 7591/7868...

Until somebody with an early version unit can measure their transformers and step forward with the results, we'll never know what the differences are -- although I suspect that the earlier transformers had a lower primary impedance.

Dave

A friend has a loose pair of Fisher 400 transformers, and we're in the process of measuring most of the outputs we have on hand... give us a week and we'll know.
 
Tom -- I would be very grateful for any input you might have on these transformers. In particular, the latter version transformers have a suffix of "AX" added to the otherwise same part number on them -- which are the transformers I have. It is the earlier version transformers without the AX suffix that is of interest here.

Dave
 
Sony -- You're certainly correct about the volume control feeding the stock phase inverter circuit.

The reason I show a jack at the input -- and the 1 meg resistor that was the subject of the error -- is because in my unit, I have converted the SpaceXpander jacks to be Preamp Out/Power Amp In jacks, which allows for great flexibility with the revised unit.

So converted, with the shorting straps removed, I can feed the power amps directly from a different preamp system, use a different preamp versus the internal one by using the tape output and power amp input jacks, or use the 400 as a tuner/preamp control for a different system. Of course, with the shorting straps in place, the original configuration remains in tact.

It was one of those modifications that just made so much sense to me, that it was silly not to do it. While it does eliminate the ability to properly use the SpaceXpander system, I doubt many of those are in use at all, unless by collectors who value those units for their historical heritage to the Fisher name.

Dave

Dave
 
Sony -- You're certainly correct about the volume control feeding the stock phase inverter circuit.

The reason I show a jack at the input -- and the 1 meg resistor that was the subject of the error -- is because in my unit, I have converted the SpaceXpander jacks to be Preamp Out/Power Amp In jacks, which allows for great flexibility with the revised unit.

So converted, with the shorting straps removed, I can feed the power amps directly from a different preamp system, use a different preamp versus the internal one by using the tape output and power amp input jacks, or use the 400 as a tuner/preamp control for a different system. Of course, with the shorting straps in place, the original configuration remains in tact.

It was one of those modifications that just made so much sense to me, that it was silly not to do it. While it does eliminate the ability to properly use the SpaceXpander system, I doubt many of those are in use at all, unless by collectors who value those units for their historical heritage to the Fisher name.

Dave

Dave

Unaware of that, I will perform the mod moving input jack location too. Makes perfect sense. No one will use a Fisher SpaceXpander for high-end audio.
 
Dave

Looking about your suggestions and drawings made by you, I did those modifications in the original drawings including the IBAM, EFB and the phase inverter as well for the OT mentioned (Serials 48000 and up).

Please let me know if is necesary any correction.

Regards

Luis.
 

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Luis -- What a tremendous job you did! I've always said, that as much as I hate computers, I also do so admire those who can use them to such advantage. You are obviously one of those, just as obviously as I am one who cannot!

There is one significant detail I see (a simple omission), and some others that are option oriented.

As for the omission, there should be a connection shown between the point where the 1200 ohm resistor and 220 ohm resistors meet (in the cathode circuit of the AF amplifier stage in the power amplifier), and the point where the NFB network and new 22 uF cathode bypass cap meet. This would then have the 1200 ohm resistor, 220 ohm resistor, negative side of bypass cap, and 1.2K/390pf feedback components all join together at a common point.

Regarding the schematic and various options:

1. If the SpaceXpander jacks are not going to be converted into Preamp Out/Power Amp In jacks, the 1 Meg resistor you show from pin 7 to ground on the 12AX7 AF amplifier stage would not be used. There would only be the 10K input resistor going to the wiper of the level control. If the SpaceXpander jacks are converted, then the 10K input resistor goes to the power amp in jack, with the 1 Meg resistor belonging on the jack side of the 10K resistor -- not the grid side as shown.

I hope to make my post regarding my final modification likely tomorrow, where in I will discuss this option in detail.

2. In the EFB(tm) bias supply regulator, "IF" an IBAM is to be installed, the 10K/4.7uf shunt network on the emitter of the output transistor would be eliminated, as the IBAM networks would act in place of these components.

Also, the 39K resistor associated with the EFB bias control should be increased to 47K -- this to slightly increase the EFB bias voltage to be applied to, and ultimately slightly reduced through the IBAM networks for each output. This simply gives enough "room" for the IBAM networks to operate above and below the proper set point to accommodate a wide variety of output tubes. This would then have the EFB bias buss supplying the individual IBAM networks as receiving ~ -17 vdc, with the IBAM networks then dropping that voltage to -15 vdc at each output tube grid.

Finally, the 33 uf bypass cap in each IBAM network should be reduced to 4.7 uf -- this to still allow for adequate bypassing, while also allowing these networks to react quickly to changes in bias voltage presented to them from the EFB bias supply regulator.

Of course, when using EFB, the modification to the output tube coupling cap and grid resistor values is no longer necessary. The output tubes run so cool under EFB control that this modification -- while hurting nothing -- is simply no longer necessary.

Again, I was going to address these topics in a sort of "cleanup" post, so that the various modifications could be mixed and matched together as desired. But since you've done such a superb job modifying the original schematic, I thought I would mention these here -- relative to the schematic changes you've made -- so that you can address them appropriately.

With the various modification possibilities (jack conversion or not, IBAM or not, etc), one thought would be to have the schematic show the base conversion, with the options each spotlighted on a separate page -- although that would take quite a bit of work, I'm sure.

Last quick observations:

1. The power mosfet in the EFB screen supply regulator should be shown as being heat sunk.

2. Each output tube cathode should be listed with a voltage of .21 vdc, as an indication of the optimum quiescent voltage to be set at this point.

Thank-you for making such an effort to integrate the modifications into the original schematic! It will no doubt be a huge benefit for those wishing to install them into their own units as well.

Dave
 
Hi Dave!!

First to all many thanks for the compliments!!! for me is a pleasure helping with this!!. You´re right this a tremendous Job but I´m doing this with all pleasure, due to the vintage audio specially the equipment made by Avery simply is beautiful and powerfull as well. I consider the tube audio is exquisite but the transistor audio without offending is scrap!!:smoke:

Following your suggestions I did as follows:

1-for the omission, in the connection shown between the point where the 1200 ohm resistor and 220 ohm resistors is done!!

2- the 1 Meg resistor from pin 7 to ground on the 12AX7 AF amplifier stage was removed for this version (The fisher 400), I will make another version for the Space Xpander jacks.

3-Due to is using the EFB(tm) bias supply regulator, the 10K/4.7uf shunt network on the emitter of the output transistor was removed. Also, the 39K resistor associated with the EFB bias control was increased to 47K. Once again in another version I´ll make the EFB when a IBAM is not used!

4-The 33 uf bypass cap in each IBAM network was reduced to 4.7 uf

5-the coupling caps and the grid resistor was put to original value (330k and 0.047UF).

6-I put a warning close to the FET indicating the need to use a heatsink.

7-Each output tube cathode shows a voltage of .21 vdc

8-This is the most important point: This is a development made by Dave and is necessary to show whom did this new design (Thank you Dave!!!!)

9-The IBAM design made by Drew Bolce also was included.


Once again pls tell me if something is missing in this drawing made for the "400".

As you recommends I´ll make another drawings without the IBAM and the Space Xpander jacks as well!

Regards

Luis
 

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If i may make a small correction, and not taking anything away from Dave on this, but the Individual Bias Modification that the majority of us are using was designed by Drew Bolce. The term I.B.A.M.(Individual Bias Adjustment Modification) is attributed to I believe AK'er NotDigital as he coined the term when rebuilding his 800-C IIRC.

So this could be termed a Team effort. But the Major Modifications (EFB & EFB-II) and credit for them are Dave Gillespie's.

Guys correct me on the personnel if I'm wrong, please.

Larry
 
Larry, your point is dead on as usual: Give credit where credit is due. I certainly make no claims to the IBAM term or design -- I just made a simple adjustment to the capacitance values used within it so it would operate properly with the EFB bias supply regulator. Otherwise, the revised circuit is accurate -- until tomorrow that is ...........

Dave
 
Ok I did the recommendations.

I´ve notice by NotDigital that the initial IBAM was made by Drew Bolce.

I put that in the drawing. So let me know if something else is necessary.

Regards

Luis
 
I usually don't remember what I said but I don't think I was the first to coin the term, "IBAM."

Now "IBAMification," that was me, and it truth, it is an utterly worthless contribution in the face of the work of both Drew and Dave.
 
To give credit where credit is due the IBAM was designed by Drew Bolce' and Terry DeWick. The Term IBAM was coined by Marloubow who got tired of typing "Individual Bias Adjustment Modification" out.
 
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Miller Time!

The last area of great compromise in many Fisher stereo units involves the level control, and the 400 is no exception. In all of the 400, 500, and 800 receivers (as well as many of their integrated amplifiers), the level control is place right at the input to the power amplifier. The upside of this design decision is that low level noise is very well controlled. Indeed, when Fisher receivers are on but turned full down, you'd hardly know they were running save for the dial being lit up. They are simply very quiet creatures. However this design decision, coupled with one other design decision, is what in large part -- in my humble opinion -- creates that rather unique Fisher sound in most of their receiver and integrated amplifiers. I describe it as very smooth and warm, pleasant sound to listen to, but lacking in the fine detail that generates that elusive sense of realism. Turning up the treble slightly doesn't really help, as while that helps to bring out missing detail, it also changes the timbre of the various instruments for no real gain in realism. So what causes this?

Along with the chosen position for the level control, Fisher also chose to almost universally use triode tubes for all of its small signal applications, and the 400 is no different. They are quiet, predictable in performance, and readily available even today. But all triodes suffer from what is known as the Miller Effect. This is a condition whereby high frequency signals at the plate are fed back to the grid by the internal capacitance that exists between these elements within the tube. Of course, it only happens in triodes because there is no intervening screen grid to act as a electrostatic shield to prevent such feedback. To make matters worse, the value of natural capacitance that exists between the plate and grid is effectively multiplied by the Mu (or amplification factor) of the tube. A 12AX7 tube has a Mu of 100. If it has a natural capacitance then of 1 pF or so between its plate and grid, then whatever circuit this tube is used in will perform as if a 100 pF cap is placed directly between the plate and grid of this tube -- independent of any other external components used in a given circuit. Because this capacitance is effectively an internal NFB loop within the tube, if left unchecked, Miller will roll off the high frequency (HF) response of a typical audio amplifier stage quite significantly.

The Miller Effect then is something that either needs to be combated -- if a flat response is required -- or used, if a tapered response is required. Either way, knowing of its presence can allow a circuit to be designed by properly accounting for it.

In the design of the original power amplifier circuit for the 400, Fisher engineers used the capacitance from the Miller Effect that existed within the AF amplifier stage of the phase inverter tube, along with the 47K input grid resistor (and an additional 2 pF plate to grid cap) to produce the very large roll off in HF response required to achieve stability in their design. The problems with their approach were discussed earlier in this thread, but suffice it to say, Miller certainly did the job they wanted it to, and the resulting rolled off square waves showed it. The problem is, Miller is like the Energizer Bunny. Left unchecked, it keeps going, and going, and........

The point of this is that the input of the Fisher 400 power amplifier starts at the input of the 47K grid resistor in the AF amplifier stage (or the 10K input resistor of my revised circuit). When THAT POINT is driven from a low impedance test generator source, then the effect of Miller in the AF amplifier stage is precisely set (in part) by the 47K grid resistor (or the 10K resistor in mine), since the generator itself has very little resistance by comparison. That then produces the 10 kHz square wave forms I provided earlier for both the original design, and my modified design. All this is good, except that in normal use, we don't use a test generator to drive the power amplifier, we use the level control at the output of the tone amplifier stage -- and that's a big problem.

The source impedance provided by the output of the tone amplifier stage to the top of the level control is low enough, but what about all that resistance within the level control itself? At very low settings, the wiper's resistance to ground is very low, therefore keeping the impedance at the input to the power amplifier low. The same thing happens at very high settings as well, where the low output impedance of the tone amplifier keeps Miller in check. But what about the intermediate settings where the level control normally resides? That effectively represents another 250K (!) of resistance added on top of the fixed input grid resistors used in the power amplifier, and allows Miller to have a hay day in the AF amplifier stage. The result is a very, very rolled off response, the amount of which is forever changing with the position of the level control.

Their are ways to deal with this problem, the most notable of which are:

1. Use a preamp that has a consistently low output impedance regardless of how its controls might be set (which can easily be done with an external preamp now if the SpaceXpander jacks are converted to Preamp Out/Power Amp In jacks), and

2. Make the power amplifier input insensitive to any variations in source impedance. Easiest way? Get rid of the triode input stage, and use a pentode input stage. Miller cannot reside in pentodes as previously mentioned. Manufacturers like Scott used this to great advantage in their designs, where the level control -- placed in exactly the same place in the circuit as Fisher does -- has no effect on the pentode AF amplifier section of their (typically) 6U8/7199 inverter/driver tubes.

But changing the Fisher over to using that type of tube changes the inherent nature of the design -- which could be done, but then starts making the Fisher no longer be a Fisher. The goal here is to make the unit be the very best it can be, within what it's original design topology is. If you want a pentode based driver design topology, then go get a Scott.

Changing the preamp section of the 400 to produce an inherently low impedance drive to the power amplifier section regardless of control setting requires more tubes, in a physical design that is already space challenged, so that is not an option either. So what do you do? The roll off is severe, and needs to be corrected if any real gains in realism are to be achieved. I hope I don't lose some of you here (by that I mean turn away), but just like in the power supply section, the answer is SS -- and it is a VERY good answer.

I'll put the details of that answer in my next post, but for now, just to show you how bad the roll of is, a pic is provided of my revised 400 power amplifier with a 10 kHz square wave injected at the top of the level control, with the control turned to a rather typical 10-11 o'clock setting. Eeeeugh! You'd never even know that the source was a square wave!! Want more? With the original design, IT'S EVEN WORSE! With every other aspect of the power amplifier sections now performing so wonderfully, this simply could not stand.......

Dave
 

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The last area of great compromise in many Fisher stereo units involves the level control, and the 400 is no exception. In all of the 400, 500, and 800 receivers (as well as many of their integrated amplifiers), the level control is place right at the input to the power amplifier. The upside of this design decision is that low level noise is very well controlled. Indeed, when Fisher receivers are on but turned full down, you'd hardly know they were running save for the dial being lit up. They are simply very quiet creatures. However this design decision, coupled with one other design decision, is what in large part -- in my humble opinion -- creates that rather unique Fisher sound in most of their receiver and integrated amplifiers. I describe it as very smooth and warm, pleasant sound to listen to, but lacking in the fine detail that generates that elusive sense of realism. Turning up the treble slightly doesn't really help, as while that helps to bring out missing detail, it also changes the timbre of the various instruments for no real gain in realism. So what causes this?

Along with the chosen position for the level control, Fisher also chose to almost universally use triode tubes for all of its small signal applications, and the 400 is no different. They are quiet, predictable in performance, and readily available even today. But all triodes suffer from what is known as the Miller Effect. This is a condition whereby high frequency signals at the plate are fed back to the grid by the internal capacitance that exists between these elements within the tube. Of course, it only happens in triodes because there is no intervening screen grid to act as a electrostatic shield to prevent such feedback. To make matters worse, the value of natural capacitance that exists between the plate and grid is effectively multiplied by the Mu (or amplification factor) of the tube. A 12AX7 tube has a Mu of 100. If it has a natural capacitance then of 1 pF or so between its plate and grid, then whatever circuit this tube is used in will perform as if a 100 pF cap is placed directly between the plate and grid of this tube -- independent of any other external components used in a given circuit. Because this capacitance is effectively an internal NFB loop within the tube, if left unchecked, Miller will roll off the high frequency (HF) response of a typical audio amplifier stage quite significantly.

The Miller Effect then is something that either needs to be combated -- if a flat response is required -- or used, if a tapered response is required. Either way, knowing of its presence can allow a circuit to be designed by properly accounting for it.

In the design of the original power amplifier circuit for the 400, Fisher engineers used the capacitance from the Miller Effect that existed within the AF amplifier stage of the phase inverter tube, along with the 47K input grid resistor (and an additional 2 pF plate to grid cap) to produce the very large roll off in HF response required to achieve stability in their design. The problems with their approach were discussed earlier in this thread, but suffice it to say, Miller certainly did the job they wanted it to, and the resulting rolled off square waves showed it. The problem is, Miller is like the Energizer Bunny. Left unchecked, it keeps going, and going, and........

The point of this is that the input of the Fisher 400 power amplifier starts at the input of the 47K grid resistor in the AF amplifier stage (or the 10K input resistor of my revised circuit). When THAT POINT is driven from a low impedance test generator source, then the effect of Miller in the AF amplifier stage is precisely set (in part) by the 47K grid resistor (or the 10K resistor in mine), since the generator itself has very little resistance by comparison. That then produces the 10 kHz square wave forms I provided earlier for both the original design, and my modified design. All this is good, except that in normal use, we don't use a test generator to drive the power amplifier, we use the level control at the output of the tone amplifier stage -- and that's a big problem.

The source impedance provided by the output of the tone amplifier stage to the top of the level control is low enough, but what about all that resistance within the level control itself? At very low settings, the wiper's resistance to ground is very low, therefore keeping the impedance at the input to the power amplifier low. The same thing happens at very high settings as well, where the low output impedance of the tone amplifier keeps Miller in check. But what about the intermediate settings where the level control normally resides? That effectively represents another 250K (!) of resistance added on top of the fixed input grid resistors used in the power amplifier, and allows Miller to have a hay day in the AF amplifier stage. The result is a very, very rolled off response, the amount of which is forever changing with the position of the level control.

Their are ways to deal with this problem, the most notable of which are:

1. Use a preamp that has a consistently low output impedance regardless of how its controls might be set (which can easily be done with an external preamp now if the SpaceXpander jacks are converted to Preamp Out/Power Amp In jacks), and

2. Make the power amplifier input insensitive to any variations in source impedance. Easiest way? Get rid of the triode input stage, and use a pentode input stage. Miller cannot reside in pentodes as previously mentioned. Manufacturers like Scott used this to great advantage in their designs, where the level control -- placed in exactly the same place in the circuit as Fisher does -- has no effect on the pentode AF amplifier section of their (typically) 6U8/7199 inverter/driver tubes.

But changing the Fisher over to using that type of tube changes the inherent nature of the design -- which could be done, but then starts making the Fisher no longer be a Fisher. The goal here is to make the unit be the very best it can be, within what it's original design topology is. If you want a pentode based driver design topology, then go get a Scott.

Changing the preamp section of the 400 to produce an inherently low impedance drive to the power amplifier section regardless of control setting requires more tubes, in a physical design that is already space challenged, so that is not an option either. So what do you do? The roll off is severe, and needs to be corrected if any real gains in realism are to be achieved. I hope I don't lose some of you here (by that I mean turn away), but just like in the power supply section, the answer is SS -- and it is a VERY good answer.

I'll put the details of that answer in my next post, but for now, just to show you how bad the roll of is, a pic is provided of my revised 400 power amplifier with a 10 kHz square wave injected at the top of the level control, with the control turned to a rather typical 10-11 o'clock setting. Eeeeugh! You'd never even know that the source was a square wave!! Want more? With the original design, IT'S EVEN WORSE! With every other aspect of the power amplifier sections now performing so wonderfully, this simply could not stand.......

Dave

I was aware of miller effect and it is as you stated huge in 12AX7s. My horn speakers plus using rather crisp sounding Sylvania 5751 black plate tubes in positions V10 & V11 removes some of the darkness of the Fisher sonics. I look forward to your mods. I received two wrong parts from Mouser. Once received I'll be converting the PI.
 
To give credit where credit is due the IBAM was designed by Drew Bolce' and Terry DeWick. The Term IBAM was coined by Marloubow who got tired of typing "Individual Bias Adjustment Modification" out.

My apologies to Terry DeWick and Marloubow for my poor memory.

Larry
 
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