Interesting article on cables...drama ensues...

[patate91]

Is there an aspect of life which doesn't contain some form of drama? Power cords of all things, the most boring part of any system, about as interesting to discuss as the installation of a toilet repair kit, yet it's managed to become dramatic.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, is that 2dB is a very tiny change in SPL. I wouldn't count on the author's test equipment being set up well enough to resolve this change.. maybe he moved a bit while the cord was changed, maybe other people in the room moved and it affected the room acoustics in a way which changed the level by 2dB, maybe some ambient noise affected the reading, like HVAC switching on or off, maybe his meter just isn't that accurate to begin with.

There's no positive proof the power cord vendor did anything wrong, I can see why the host of the show didn't like his "expose". Regardless of the merit of expensive power cords, any sort of scientific test which doesn't strictly control all variables except the one being tested, is not valid and shouldn't be presented as such. Especially to be used as proof of someone's dishonesty. This is elementary school science.. controlled variables versus the independent variables.

Small mouvements can affect some frequencies, high frequencies.

Small mouvements and people can't have an effect on the overall bandwidth.

It seems that je recorded the whole show, so you can ask him to send you the files. I guess he found that the 2 db increase appears only when a specific cable is presented.

 

[musichal]

Is there an aspect of life which doesn't contain some form of drama? Power cords of all things, the most boring part of any system, about as interesting to discuss as the installation of a toilet repair kit, yet it's managed to become dramatic.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, is that 2dB is a very tiny change in SPL. I wouldn't count on the author's test equipment being set up well enough to resolve this change.. maybe he moved a bit while the cord was changed, maybe other people in the room moved and it affected the room acoustics in a way which changed the level by 2dB, maybe some ambient noise affected the reading, like HVAC switching on or off, maybe his meter just isn't that accurate to begin with.

There's no positive proof the power cord vendor did anything wrong, I can see why the host of the show didn't like his "expose". Regardless of the merit of expensive power cords, any sort of scientific test which doesn't strictly control all variables except the one being tested, is not valid and shouldn't be presented as such. Especially to be used as proof of someone's dishonesty. This is elementary school science.. controlled variables versus the independent variables.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but it was eclipsed by indignant posts, I guess. I specifically wondered if people were moving around, knowing that could cause a small drop in level. Many other questions have also come up in subsequent posts. And while the head of the audio society might have tempered his communication, it is conceivable that he was quite angry (and possibly rightfully so), which can be a detriment to communication. Who among us has never said or written something he later wished he'd expressed differently? Especially when angry?

It's not that I'm defending him in the sense that he was in the right. I still reserve judgment because we just simply don't have all the info, and likely never will. Defaming the Society's official on the basis of what has been presented is like making a decision in criminal court with the only testimony being the prosecutor's case.

 

[patate91]

Mark Waldrep has a reputation, I don't think he would take that kind of risks just for fun.

http://aixrecords.com/contact/about_mw.html

 

[Bodyblue]

Defaming the Society's official on the basis of what has been presented

Ummm showing what the guy wrote is hardly "defaming". Now if the author was lying about the email exchange, that is indeed different. But posting the text of a message is hardly defamation.

 

[IPADave]

Why didn't Mr. Waldrep address his concerns at the meeting? Publishing his "findings" on the internet like he did makes him look like a punk. The head of the audio society comes across as a hot head. We'll never know the whole story but both parties could have handled their parts better.

-Dave

 

[musichal]

Ummm showing what the guy wrote is hardly "defaming". Now if the author was lying about the email exchange, that is indeed different. But posting the text of a message is hardly defamation.

Good point. I wish I'd worded that differently, and I'm not even angry.

What I actually meant was that judging the man harshly from such communication is easy to do, but does not negate the possibility that the "test" results were not under controlled conditions, and thus suspect.

 

[SoCal Sam]

The first real component the power cord feeds is the transformer. They have certain characteristics.
Special transformers are used in the output sections of tube amps and the better ones can do 20 to 20K hertzs with no or very little loss. They are of a specific design to allow the higher frequency's to work properly and not be lost in the iron.
Since the first component in an amp or just about any other piece of gear is a transformer specifically designed for 60 or 50 hertz, most of the hash on the line is filtered out as losses in the iron. They are not very effective at letting through all the high frequency noise that may be found on the incoming power. The rest of the power supply cleans up almost all of it.
If the power cord is sized to the load properly that a bigger cord should make no difference.
My Mac MC40's still sport the factory lamp style cords, I do believe that the engineers at McIntosh Laboratories knew a thing or two.

BillWojo

Interestingly, there was a power cord thread in McIntosh forum not too long ago. Most of the answers were similar to yours, that is, the Mac engineers know their stuff. The retailers were no where to be seen.

 

[SoCal Sam]

I received a private message from a member who stated he could not reply to this thread. His identity and reply will remain hidden unless he allows me to publish. However, my answer and questions are applicable to all power cable proponents:

HI Xxxxxxxx:

No problem on the delayed reply, best wishes for a safe journey.

First off, "objectivists" or objectivism is a personal preference and is therefore beyond criticism. Some people like coloration, others do not. As long as the listener has compared the two, then his personal preference is valid and no one can tell him otherwise. We can take this a little further and introduce audio perception which is unique to all individuals and therefore unreliable as a measure of objectivity. The only way to determine objectivity is to compare input and output signal on a 'scope. You disagree with Dr. Mark which is fine but your disagreement should not be an indictment.

I appreciate your observation that retailers are piss poor when it comes to scientific knowledge. My understanding of common ground is poor and you hint that this is the answer to how power cords affect signal. What is not apparent in you reply is what you are hearing. If you can hear a difference, then this difference can be seen at the output signal and measured on a 'scope. It is at this point that the retailers become indignant and circle the wagons. Either they have no knowledge (possible) or they already know that there is no measurable difference (equally possible). If there was a measurable difference, this evidence would have been presented long ago and the debate put to rest.

I appreciate the discussion and look forward to your reply.

Regards, Sam.

 

[IPADave]

I received a private message from a member who stated he could not reply to this thread. His identity and reply will remain hidden unless he allows me to publish. However, my answer and questions are applicable to all power cable proponents:

Please, the moderators have asked not discuss cords in this thread.

-Dave

 

[SoCal Sam]

Please, the moderators have asked not discuss cords in this thread.

-Dave

Got it. Withdrawn.

 

[Audiofreak71]

So one can’t state there opinions about there own equipment in there system based off the subject of the thread because someone might get offended and the mods will delete it , I got it .

Audiofreak71

 

[Audiovet]

An audio circuit designer might feel differently.

This one doesn't. [research background >50 years].

Addressing the "both-sides" logic as presented by the respected Musichal et al: Quite true - and as often disregarded as being difficult to be objective about! But I think where science enters the picture one must be careful when accepted 'fact/truth' comes in. To bring in a perhaps rediculously simple example: When some 'say' that 5 + 9 = 14 and others think it should be 12, one cannot simply apply the 'two-sides' principle and reckon that it is probably safe to take the answer as 13. [I also do not wish to start yet another debate which is why I choose a trivial example (!)]. If we begin to bring the 'average' concept into science, it follows very rapidly that the world would stop. (Firstly this PC would not work, you would not have a screen to read from, ). There are such things as 'facts/truths'; inviolable matters - does one even need to explain this??

I also applaud Ms. James for consistently reminding us that the point of conjecture was power cables! I am not even going to begin to go into why these cannot influence sound audibly or at all (there are other explanations). Let me just say with greatest respect (and including Mr. Levi) that to entertain such an argument (and another case for the "e" or not? ) reveals ignorance of basic electronics/metallurgy (to put it - er - respectfully: It is about as simple and basic as my trivial example above). Dr. Waldrep's methodology of measurement at the relevant meeting may have been questionable ; to me that is not even relevant. I have as little time for manufacturers/dealers/whoevers shooting themselves in the foot because of blinkered outlooks regarding profits, as the next person. (Perhaps to bend over backwards to be kind, they are simply only doing their jobs as laid down by their respective managements....) There are certainly enough examples of 'snake oil' (to use the known general term generically) not to perpetuate another one.

- and I thank the OP for bringing forward the particular article. And I sympathise with him that he was mainly presenting the article as an example of the treatment of a respectable scientist in a society where - perhaps just to say - scientific wherewithall seems to have a back-seat position (if on board at all) - - at least in this instance.

P.S.: And while 'correctness' was brought in: Mark is Dr Waldrep, not Mr Waldrep. He is a well-known scientist, respected by many if controversial. (In audio if not, even that may be controversial ....)

P.S: Apology to Mods for referring to cords again in my second paragraph; Some posts arrived while I was typing my reply. Matters move swiftly here !

 

[musichal]

This one doesn't. [research background >50 years].

Addressing the "both-sides" logic as presented by the respected Musichal et al: Quite true - and as often disregarded as being difficult to be objective about! But I think where science enters the picture one must be careful when accepted 'fact/truth' comes in. To bring in a perhaps rediculously simple example: When some 'say' that 5 + 9 = 14 and others think it should be 12, one cannot simply apply the 'two-sides' principle and reckon that it is probably safe to take the answer as 13. [I also do not wish to start yet another debate which is why I choose a trivial example (!)]. If we begin to bring the 'average' concept into science, it follows very rapidly that the world would stop. (Firstly this PC would not work, you would not have a screen to read from, ). There are such things as 'facts/truths'; inviolable matters - does one even need to explain this??

I also applaud Mr James for consistently reminding us that the point of conjecture was power cables! I am not even going to begin to go into why these cannot influence sound audibly or at all (there are other explanations). Let me just say with greatest respect (and including Mr. Levi) that to entertain such an argument (and another case for the "e" or not? ) reveals ignorance of basic electronics/metallurgy (to put it - er - respectfully: It is about as simple and basic as my trivial example above). Dr. Waldrep's methodology of measurement at the relevant meeting may have been questionable ; to me that is not even relevant. I have as little time for manufacturers/dealers/whoevers shooting themselves in the foot because of blinkered outlooks regarding profits, as the next person. (Perhaps to bend over backwards to be kind, they are simply only doing their jobs as laid down by their respective managements....) There are certainly enough examples of 'snake oil' (to use the known general term generically) not to perpetuate another one.

- and I thank the OP for bringing forward the particular article. And I sympathise with him that he was mainly presenting the article as an example of the treatment of a respectable scientist in a society where - perhaps just to say - scientific wherewithall seems to have a back-seat position (if on board at all) - - at least in this instance.

P.S.: And while 'correctness' was brought in: Mark is Dr Waldrep, not Mr Waldrep. He is a well-known scientist, respected by many if controversial. (In audio if not, even that may be controversial ....)

I will only say that you misrepresent my position by latching on to one aspect of it, and taking that one out of context.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Your full of bs. Show me where I was argruing,i was relating an experience I personally had with a power chord. Either You contact a moderator to close this thread or I will. You have hi jacked this thread expousing your views as the only right ones. Stop threatening people with oh I'm gonna contact a moderator,your like the little kid who cried wolf.

Last I knew She is a moderator!

 

[hjames]

It was a Audio Society policy discussion, not really about Power Cords, certainly not about interconnects.
Someone locked the thread earlier - then on reflection, they opened it again to see if folks could behave.
I think y'all can, but some want to be a pest and close down threads just to be bullies.
So, I delete their BS and try to let the thread stay on topic - discussing the argument in the Audio Society, NOT the value of Power cords!

Go re-read the first post to see the topic here.

 

[qdrone]

Yep, until qdrone starting arguing cable value in post 47 - trying to change it to another
interconnect discussion.

Since you removed my response,I guess the truth hurts. Your opinion is not the only one that holds merit in this thread. Please take your meds,when the sun rises in the morning it's for everyone not just you.

 

[hjames]

Here is your post #47 where you started by talking about INTERCONNECTS - Thats not the danged topic!! Wiring is not the danged topic. Go read Post #1 and see its about a Blogger and the Audio Society trying to shut him down.
Want to argue wire, go to Cutting Edge ...

Please stay focussed or post in another thread ...

I have always viewed audiophile cables as contours to sound. Have a system that's to bright,slap some Cardas interconnects on them.To warm of a system look for silver based interconnects. Like tube rolling it changes the sound.
In regards to power cables I had a Cardas power chord soldered into my modified Adcom 555 and when it powered up it kept blowing the fuse. After going through the unit and finding nothing wrong with the Adcom we replaced the 15 amp fuse with a 20 amp fuse and it solved the problem.

 

[Audiofreak71]

It was a Audio Society policy discussion, not really about Power Cords, certainly not about interconnects.
Someone locked the thread earlier - then on reflection, they opened it again to see if folks could behave.
I think y'all can, but some want to be a pest and close down threads just to be bullies.
So, I delete their BS and try to let the thread stay on topic - discussing the argument in the Audio Society, NOT the value of Power cords!

Go re-read the first post to see the topic here.

Surely you didn’t take what I wrote as being a bully and trying to close down a thread ? If so then something is really wrong . Like I stated before I get it , can’t state your own opinion about your own gear for the fear of people getting offended. With that said I’m done with this thread I wouldn’t want to offend anyone talking about my own opinion about my own power cable .

Audiofreak71

 

[Audiovet]

To Musichal,

My apology then.

Others also appeared to bring in the 'two-sides-to-a-story', and one finds that many times - perhaps I am conditioned! If members got what I meant, apology to those who did not mean that.

 

[musichal]

I have been a moderator on a non-audio site, and those here have nothing other than my sincere admiration and respect for a task that is often thankless, with few, if any, rewards. Thank you, mods!