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Interesting article on cables...drama ensues...

For what it's worth - and since we are now discussing policy not cables - I am blocked from the Cutting Edge part of AK, and I am proud of it.
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I dont visit much of AK, general, solid state, various manus, off topic and the 'auto' section is it. so, after I read this above, I went and found the forum and peeked in.

Grandma said if you dont have anything nice to say....

So I will say it here: <sound of crickets and other nighttime bugs>

Finished.

Can I get blocked from there too? LOL
 
I would say that the facts don't change, but that what we believe to be facts can and do change all the time.

But I've always been a fan of Plato's theory of forms.
 
It depends on the "facts". There is a broad spectrum of scientific "fact" ranging from fundamental logic and logically-provable mathematics at one end, to highly-controversial "fact" at the other end that is little more than opinion (informed opinion maybe, or maybe not). The former do not change over time and never will (e.g., 2 + 2 = 4 will never be discovered to be wrong); the latter often do (e.g., String Theory may or may not describe the universe.) Determining which is at work in any given scenario or observation -- particularly when the assertions are about electronics -- is left as an exercise for the reader. (Hint: sometimes they're the former, and sometimes the latter.)

Some corporate and retailer assertions are factual; some are lies. Some scientific assertions are factual; some are lies.

How do you know which is which, in either case?

I find this post a lot more honestly delivered than from who I presented the question to.
 
For a Scientist I would think you would be more open to nothing is fully explained, nor is it fact. That is the problem with the scientific community today as they tend to be more agenda driven than honestly pursuing facts.
Actually, quite the opposite is happening.

However, some scientific endeavours are producing unpopular results, and that is sometimes interpreted as an agenda by those whose agenda is harmed -- or beliefs challenged -- by those results.

There are also a relatively small number of individuals who peddle an agenda under the guise of "science" but they are -- by definition --- not being scientific whether they are scientists or not.

The vast majority of scientists are simply trying to find answers, implement positive change, or verify results in a very, very specific, focused area of work that no one outside of a narrow field will ever notice. The only agenda is to try to be as accurate and rigorous as possible.
You spun a web of BS here with word semantics instead of a straight forward answer.
"Word semantics" literally means "word meaning". How was it that someone "spun a web of BS" (what "web of BS"?) with word meaning?
 
They are industry advocates and therefore pro-industry.

And there is nothing wrong with being pro industry. There is something wrong with lying about one's product then applying pressure to shut somebody up over it. If the vendor had confidence in their product, why not challenge the detractor to an open and fair demo? I loved vendor demos over my years in retail and many of us called out what we thought was BS and every time the vendor either proved us wrong or changed how and what they said about that product.

Being a industry lemming and demanding one shut up and hand over money without a question is profoundly stupid.
 
And there is nothing wrong with being pro industry. There is something wrong with lying about one's product then applying pressure to shut somebody up over it. If the vendor had confidence in their product, why not challenge the detractor to an open and fair demo? I loved vendor demos over my years in retail and many of us called out what we thought was BS and every time the vendor either proved us wrong or changed how and what they said about that product.

Being a industry lemming and demanding one shut up and hand over money without a question is profoundly stupid.

/thread.
 
Especially where there is sponsor money involved. Is the "society" for members to enjoy cutting edge tech or is it a shill for vendors?

I can easily see the sheeple, er society members rushing the stage offering kudos to the guest presenters, er industry reps.
 
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And there is nothing wrong with being pro industry. There is something wrong with lying about one's product then applying pressure to shut somebody up over it. If the vendor had confidence in their product, why not challenge the detractor to an open and fair demo? I loved vendor demos over my years in retail and many of us called out what we thought was BS and every time the vendor either proved us wrong or changed how and what they said about that product.

Being a industry lemming and demanding one shut up and hand over money without a question is profoundly stupid.

Agreed, there is nothing wrong here. Commercial speech is protected speech as long as no legally deceptive claims are made.

This does not mean I do not like what they are doing. IMO, they are not a society.
 
Interesting read. The thing that also strikes me about this is why they didn't pick up the phone and talk to each other as professionals. I've had many people work with me in business over the years and have mentored a number of those. Early on we discuss the importance of professional and effective communications. Also, maybe as important is what mode you choose to use for a particular need / type of communications. Email, texting, and messaging are great tools to get something done quickly but at times the context of the conversation is lost or misunderstood. Also, some people somewhat hide behind emails or texts but in person or on a call they may not be as bold with their comments. A phone call or in person meeting is still a great option for communications especially if the topic involves difference of opinion or compromise. In this case it seems the issue was not resolved satisfactorily at least for one of the parties involved.
 
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As some have already stated, Bob as "CEO" has the right to revoke membership to whoever he wants. (Maybe this is true maybe its not. Without knowing their bylaws or rules I am just working under the assumption that he can.) The fact that this Society has a President/CEO is in and of itself a major red flag to me. Have you looked at the Society Officers page on the LAOCAS website? There are a total of 37 officers! 13 Vice Presidents, 12 Senior Vice Presidents, 9 Executive Vice presidents, 1 Senior Executive Vice President, 1 Chairman and 1 President and CEO. With titles like that I get the impression that the Leadership of this Society needs to feel important and will likely favor relationships with industry representatives and store owners over their members. As long as they can rub elbows with people they perceive as important they don't care what they try to peddle to their members. And anything that could jeopardize those relationships is deemed unacceptable.

In this case I would have loved to see Bob reach out to Mark and make with a proposal to redo the demo at another meeting or event. perhaps something like this,

Mark,
It has come to my attention that you have posted information on you Blog about a recent power cable demo put on at our last event. I have read the article and feel that the methods used and claims made by you might be taken negatively by the presenter. A better course of action might have been to address the speaker directly with your concerns and findings at the end of his demo so he may attempt to defend himself or product. If negative feedback from our members is posted without at least giving the other party a chance to defend themselves it might influence our society's ability to offer factory representation in the future.


Having said that, I would very much like to know if our members are being duped into buying things through deception. I propose that we invite the vendor back to another event and ask that the demonstration be redone. If we find any evidence of foul play at that time we can address it with him then. If we want to do this right we should also be using calibrated equipment to test for SPL levels. If we are to make accusations and cite technical data we should do our due diligence and insure the data we collect is valid. Do you have the proper instrumentation needed for a precision test or should I have some sourced?

El Capitan Bob

NOTE: THE ABOVE PASSAGE IS NOT A QUOTATION!


As someone who is tasked occasionally with defending his company's products from erroneous clams made by the un/misinformed I would gladly accept to redo the demonstration if asked and help with any data acquisition needed. If you truly believe in your products this should not be an issue. If a manufacturer would not agree to another demo or allow tests to be conducted during that demo to check validity of claims made, I'm not sure I would want them to be part of my events.

Mr. Levi, If it so happens that you do read this, know that this could have been handled much, much better. I would be willing to bet that a lot of your Laocas members are members on AK as well (or at least lurkers). They will undoubtedly stumble across this thread and you will probably catch some backlash. In the future, do yourself a favor, take a deep breath and try to approach your issues with a level head. One more thing. to quote you in your response to our thread "I was not there." if you were not there then how can you say that there was "no problem with the presentation"? What did your investigation consist of? Asking a few other members (dare I say friends?) that might have been in attendance? Hardly scientific...
 
Brilliant post.

There are a total of 37 officers! 13 Vice Presidents, 12 Senior Vice Presidents, 9 Executive Vice presidents, 1 Senior Executive Vice President, 1 Chairman and 1 President and CEO. With titles like that I get the impression that the Leadership of this Society needs to feel important and will likely favor relationships with industry representatives and store owners over their members.

I left IBM to goto VISA and that organization is top heavy with titles. (my 2nd line mgr was 'vice president of stuff'). Businesses like dealing with titles or perceptions of titles. Makes everyone feel important. While his website says 2500 members his reply to mark said 2700, regardless, they have THAT many divisions to executive over? IBM c. 1987.....(of course IBM was nearly half a million strong so the comparison fails...)

El Capitan Bob

Equally brilliant. My first thought was a railroad name however...


Mr. Levi, If it so happens that you do read this, know that this could have been handled much, much better. I would be willing to bet that a lot of your Laocas members are members on AK as well (or at least lurkers). They will undoubtedly stumble across this thread and you will probably catch some backlash. In the future, do yourself a favor, take a deep breath and try to approach your issues with a level head. One more thing. to quote you in your response to our thread "I was not there." if you were not there then how can you say that there was "no problem with the presentation"? What did your investigation consist of? Asking a few other members (dare I say friends?) that might have been in attendance? Hardly sudoscientific...

If he was given the link and replied to the other guy has he did, he did read it and continues to do so. And he cannot even append to the thread a big fat 'NUH UH!'

This is a PR mess if he wishes his organization to be taken seriously. He can contact me and I will show him the path of salvation. Free. This time.
 
and, never being one to stir the pot...from the LOACAS (which btw is also ladies of a certain age society which has an online presence and I am not sure is 100% legal) website:

2018 Dues are due. Still only $40 per year. Please Join the World's Largest Audio Society!!

Excuse me, but the front page says 2400 members, Bob Levis pages on the website say 2500 members. He told 'Mark' there is 2700 members.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the AK has a couple orders of magnitude more of REGISTERED members? And we are in fact an audio society. It is even in our name (audio) and and gathering of like minded people is in fact a society (so much so that we are legally allowed to start our own credit union if we can surmount the capitalization requirements)

Therefore, one of the 'officers' in charge of this place need to file a cease and desist injunction against LOACAS claiming fraud and immediate shut down of the website.

And CA being what it is, with the 9th in residence, you/we/us will win. just sayin ;-)
 
and, never being one to stir the pot...from the LOACAS (which btw is also ladies of a certain age society which has an online presence and I am not sure is 100% legal) website:



Excuse me, but the front page says 2400 members, Bob Levis pages on the website say 2500 members. He told 'Mark' there is 2700 members.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the AK has a couple orders of magnitude more of REGISTERED members? And we are in fact an audio society. It is even in our name (audio) and and gathering of like minded people is in fact a society (so much so that we are legally allowed to start our own credit union if we can surmount the capitalization requirements)

Therefore, one of the 'officers' in charge of this place need to file a cease and desist injunction against LOACAS claiming fraud and immediate shut down of the website.

And CA being what it is, with the 9th in residence, you/we/us will win. just sayin ;-)


I find it very interesting that some posters are far more upset that a whistleblower put a little sunshine on this "society" than the possibility that the vendor was trying to pull something. The more light that is being shown on the org the stranger it seems. I smelled something fishy right away and said so. There seems to be a huge amount of Chiefs and not very many Indians. All of the VP positions just slay me.........
 
As some have already stated, Bob as "CEO" has the right to revoke membership to whoever he wants. (Maybe this is true maybe its not. Without knowing their bylaws or rules I am just working under the assumption that he can.) The fact that this Society has a President/CEO is in and of itself a major red flag to me. Have you looked at the Society Officers page on the LAOCAS website? There are a total of 37 officers! 13 Vice Presidents, 12 Senior Vice Presidents, 9 Executive Vice presidents, 1 Senior Executive Vice President, 1 Chairman and 1 President and CEO. With titles like that I get the impression that the Leadership of this Society needs to feel important and will likely favor relationships with industry representatives and store owners over their members. As long as they can rub elbows with people they perceive as important they don't care what they try to peddle to their members. And anything that could jeopardize those relationships is deemed unacceptable.

In this case I would have loved to see Bob reach out to Mark and make with a proposal to redo the demo at another meeting or event. perhaps something like this,

Mark,
It has come to my attention that you have posted information on you Blog about a recent power cable demo put on at our last event. I have read the article and feel that the methods used and claims made by you might be taken negatively by the presenter. A better course of action might have been to address the speaker directly with your concerns and findings at the end of his demo so he may attempt to defend himself or product. If negative feedback from our members is posted without at least giving the other party a chance to defend themselves it might influence our society's ability to offer factory representation in the future.


Having said that, I would very much like to know if our members are being duped into buying things through deception. I propose that we invite the vendor back to another event and ask that the demonstration be redone. If we find any evidence of foul play at that time we can address it with him then. If we want to do this right we should also be using calibrated equipment to test for SPL levels. If we are to make accusations and cite technical data we should do our due diligence and insure the data we collect is valid. Do you have the proper instrumentation needed for a precision test or should I have some sourced?

El Capitan Bob

NOTE: THE ABOVE PASSAGE IS NOT A QUOTATION!


As someone who is tasked occasionally with defending his company's products from erroneous clams made by the un/misinformed I would gladly accept to redo the demonstration if asked and help with any data acquisition needed. If you truly believe in your products this should not be an issue. If a manufacturer would not agree to another demo or allow tests to be conducted during that demo to check validity of claims made, I'm not sure I would want them to be part of my events.

Mr. Levi, If it so happens that you do read this, know that this could have been handled much, much better. I would be willing to bet that a lot of your Laocas members are members on AK as well (or at least lurkers). They will undoubtedly stumble across this thread and you will probably catch some backlash. In the future, do yourself a favor, take a deep breath and try to approach your issues with a level head. One more thing. to quote you in your response to our thread "I was not there." if you were not there then how can you say that there was "no problem with the presentation"? What did your investigation consist of? Asking a few other members (dare I say friends?) that might have been in attendance? Hardly scientific...

I am in the LA/OC area and will never recommend this "society" to audiophiles. This organization would be appropriate for someone looking to buy new equipment and does not know where to start.
 
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I am sure the Society is much like AK, you have to take what you hear, or in AK what your read with an open mind, but it is your responsibility to research what you read or hear to be best educated. It doesn't matter if its cables, source type, or amp type, everyone has a point to make and finding your idea of the best product, sometimes you have to sift the wheat to separate it from the chaff.
 
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Very entertaining thread with some brilliant posts in the last couple of pages.

Surprised it is still open, so kudos to AK (those of you who could keep it between the ditches anyway), and the mods for being willing to clean up the wreckage of those who couldn't.

I think he could have addressed the problem privately with the vendor and see how that went instead of publishing first. And El Capitan could (should) have done exactly what was presented above as an alternate response. The fact that the vendor wasn't in the mix offering to prove the veracity of his product and presentation speaks volumes.
 
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