Investing in Vintage Stereo - Is This Stupid?

[loopstick]

Right now IMHO the prices are at a point that if you add in shipping costs there's very little incentive to buy. However at some point in the future what we now thing of as vintage will become antiques. And if all the lights work and it puts out good sound it's possible that these things could become popular working conversation pieces. Like Victrolas but without the tinny screechy sound. So the the value of these things will increase more according to how they look than how they may have been rated when they were originally marketed. However buying a bunch of vintage stuff and waiting until it morphs into antiques is something I don't think antique dealers do. They don't "grow" their stock. Too long term.

 

[Todd Dodds]

buying TOTL receivers for such a specialized investment means you need to find only MINT units, no scratches, no
bruises, no wear whatsoever, and with optional original cases, shipping boxes, and instructions. a Bill of Sale will
help.

then be prepared to fix to period-correct components. No Black Gates, stepped attenuators, power supply upgrades,
etc. and you do the work to preserve possible future margins.

then run them all the time with low-level sound, on surge protectors, etc. otherwise power-up after 10 years could
mean BOOM.

make sure your price sampling is bullet-proof and at the first sign of weakness - you pull the plug. like in 2008/9.

I've watched nakamichi TOTL like the dragon go all the way up and now they are really down, and no one pays
a premium for a blue-printed or upgraded unit.

there are audio units that keep increasing but they're not receivers. Had I your money to "invest" I would look
at the largest groups of the lunatic fringe ( I am a forever member of one of these) and buy one of their holy
grails. but look for an unmolested unit in a garage/attic find, fix it yourself. make it absolutely period correct
and working. find it cheap, really cheap.

go to small towns, find the unofficial mayor, buy her a present, leave a business card and ask her for a
call when there's a change in the population, and there's an unpublished estate sale, and, of course, make
sure she knows and gets a commission.

one example is a L300.

Good post, Bob, but you've really dumped on my dream. But I bounced back pretty quick after talking to a new friend who's a crackhead burglar. He explained to me that the only real, easy money is when you steal top drawer gear and sell it for $40 at the pawn shop out on Hwy 61. He said an added benefit was that he usually comes across additional "finds" like cameras, guns etc.
I'm supposed to go with him tonight to see if I like it.
Say...uh, any of you investor guys going to be home tonight?

 

[jobrewer1983]

I bought several top line stereo receivers around 6-7 years ago and some of the current prices (ebay, where else) have significantly increased from what I paid. I have a Pioneer SX-1250, Marantz 2385, Yamaha CR3020 and Toshiba SA-7150. The current Pioneer and Marantz receiver prices are almost 50% higher, on average, than what I paid. The Yamaha has increased about 15% and the Toshiba is about the same. It seems that the Marantz and Pioneer higher end components are increasing the most with Yamaha close behind. There are other good brands, but the increase is the most with Pioneer and Marantz. I am wondering if it would be a sane thing to do if I invested 10k-20k (or more) and buy a few Pioneer receivers (SX-1050, 1250), a few Marantz receivers (2325, 2330, 2385) and a few Yamaha receivers (CR1020, 2020). The 3020's are too rare. Even with restoration costs, I could conceivable make a nice return in 4-5 years. I know I could do okay in ETF fund investing, but I love being around beautiful classic stereo stuff. It is like an addiction, and I could do just as well as traditional investing. I am mainly into receivers, but good vintage speakers have also shown a huge increase in price during the last 6-7 years. I guess you could compare this to people who invest in collectable vintage cars.

Cool thread Mr. joe_tex,

This all depends on the model of gear you are buying, and what you are spending on it.

I do a lot of side work on audio gear, and can actually make pretty good money to keep my hobby active.

I paid 40 bucks for an SX-1250 in working order a few years back. (it pays to know people in the E-Waste business) I conducted a full restore on it, all new caps, transistors ect... The build is posted in the Pioneer section. If I remember correctly I paid less than 150.00 in parts. Labor was free as I did the work myself. I turned around and traded it for a set of Marantz 250Ms with the 3800 preamp. The amps were not working at the time, but I than started the repair work on them. Turned around and sold them on eBay for a nice profit.

For the vintage audio world, most people who are into the hobby know what is good, and collectable. For example, if you invest in a pioneer 1010, you know over the next few years the price may go up or down a little, but its pretty stable. Same with the others you mentioned. For the 1250 that thing keeps going up for some reason. Same with the 1280/1980... They do sound good, but really there are better receivers on the market. I think the 1010 will best the 1250 any day.

If you are looking to make money, I'd suggest investing in integrated and separate systems. They tend to sell better and demand higher prices. One can make money on vintage receivers, but you are going to limited.

Also being that Vinyl has made its return, I'd say start looking into newer pressings and keep them sealed. Over time they will be OOP and the value will increase. Same with tables for that matter. I've done very well in the past with turntables.

Kind Regards,
John

 

[Djcoolray]

Then again investing should be in something that has a future and audio is the love of sound and dependent on popularity. That does not make for a sound investment!

 

[sunrayjack12]

to buy for your pleasure and enjoyment is fine.
to buy this stuff for investment purposes is not the wisest thing to do with your money.
Mutual finds are much better. "vintage" audio prices are highly inflated IMO.
But its your money and you should do with it what pleases you most.

I would never buy any stereo gear for an investment, you will never get your money back, people will beat you to death on price.
Normally when you are ready to sell, you either need money or you are chasing another piece of gear in either case you can get impatient and sell low.
Buy for pleasure and enjoy, vintage gear is nice stuff and at the same time you can get a piece of crap if you are not careful.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Thanks for bringing up Postage Stamps. I have a hand me down collection from my dad and my mothers dad. I believe it was appraised in the 70's or 80's . Unfortunately I don't have any paperwork confirming that and that appraisal is no doubt not valid anymore. Today the collection may not be worth the cost of getting it appraised. I wonder if I could donate it somewhere and get a tax deduction.

Your best bet would be to find a Stamp wholesaler and they usually buy collections for a set price or you have something of real value they sell it on commission. If you found the appraisal it should have some catalog numbers of the items in collection that establishes its value using those numbers it is not hard to now look them up on say ebay and see what those are selling for. What they are listed for is of no value as people put all likes of what they would wish to get.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I would never buy any stereo gear for an investment, you will never get your money back, people will beat you to death on price.
Normally when you are ready to sell, you either need money or you are chasing another piece of gear in either case you can get impatient and sell low.
Buy for pleasure and enjoy, vintage gear is nice stuff and at the same time you can get a piece of crap if you are not careful.

Everyone is different, that is why some people make money on investments and others lose money.

 

[Bob]

Good post, Bob, but you've really dumped on my dream. But I bounced back pretty quick after talking to a new friend who's a crackhead burglar. He explained to me that the only real, easy money is when you steal top drawer gear and sell it for $40 at the pawn shop out on Hwy 61. He said an added benefit was that he usually comes across additional "finds" like cameras, guns etc.
I'm supposed to go with him tonight to see if I like it.
Say...uh, any of you investor guys going to be home tonight?

did not intend to dump on your dream. I did this awhile back and realized it was not a 10-minute armchair exercise.

so I meant it as a plan for you. I'll expand a little:

1. buy only a few select units not all the TOTL RadioShack, Yorx, etc -- pick only what you think are winners
2. BUY all the junk versions of #1 for pennies or trade. you may need parts like unobtanium diodes, or sub-assemblies
like tuner modules (the reason for this is that tuner re-alignment will cost you your profit if you can find someone to align
your tuner or replace that IF transformer that is only available from a parts unit), subassemblies include power supplies
front face plates, top and bottom covers, etc
3. find out who in your immediate area has these units. made them an offer. or hide your offer in buying the whole magilla.
remember who these guys are and wait for #4.
4. I hate being a estate-ghoul - offering the poor widow $5 for a Marantz 7. I usually make a fair offer even if it's tagged at $5.
if you don't have this level of compassion, then wait for the estate sale, or make it a habit to go to all the estate sales.
or go early and make them an offer they can't refuse. I know a guy who specializes in estate Pioneer 1280s - he makes
about 1K each sale and has been doing this for about 10 years and he can repair them in about 3 days.
5. be an expert on #1. don't just buy something that might be just a pretty face that has exploded caps inside. bring a pair
of 50w 8R resistors with the appropriate clips, power up the unit, plug in your headphones (with an attenuator attached)
and crank it up to check if outputs are blown. if you have time, bring a VOM and measure DC offsets. takes 10 seconds.
and if you want, explain why the unit isn't worth the asking price - "the DC offset is 45MV"

there are plenty of folks who do this with guns, cameras (incredible bucks from harvesting film camera lenses for today's DSLRs),
LPs, etc.

one of my personal examples is back about 20 years ago I traded a set of audio magazines for a pair of PAS2s, then collected
everything Dynaco - PAS2/3, ST70s, etc. I spent about 400 and overall sold them for about 5K. if you ever see a PAS with a
blue LED - its mine. I did all the repairs, upgraded power supplies, added Blue LED, etc. Bulk of the profit was the selling
of the holy grail ribbed plate 12ax7 Telefunkens, and the Mullard EL34s and the rectifier tubes. people go gaga over these
tubes.

so there's work involved.

If you just want to buy something and sit back and wait for a couple of years, there's buying stocks.

BTW I have almost 1000 positive feedbacks on eBay and do not recommend buying on ebay. you have almost no chance
that the lister is honest, the unit is mint AND working, and the unit gets to you undamaged, and is way overpriced.
better buying off AK.

 

[Bob]

I think I make a mountain out of a molehill. so, to make up for lost time,

there are several schemes that buy, do nothing, hold, sell at profit:

1. LS3/5A speakers. these sell for 3-4K on ebay & you can buy them for under 1K - do nationwide search of craigslist. Several showed up at 500-900
if its outside driving distance, build a shipping box three triple-walled boxes inside one another, foam line inside, add stiffeners and hand holds
ship to seller with prepaid (suggest FedEx account), and offer 100 above asking. send them the box and some packing tape.
look for the 2 speakers and buy extras. these make much more money. also harvest similar era speakers for them like JR.
guaranteed 300-400% return. my prediction is that these go for 4-5K within 10 years.

2. less guarantee and buyer has to be somewhat careful (but less so than TOTL receivers in less than MINT condition) is
buy sealed Rock/Jazz LPs. especially the limited editions and audiophile brands. you need to know or guess at
which will be worth $ in a few short years. skip female vocals and classical music.

the LS3/5A has its own website and you can sell these all day long to the Asian market - they love female vocals on them. and
you can still enjoy them. I haven't seen one that required re-foaming like almost every other speaker and they are phenomenal
speakers.

if you're serious about #1 I can give you lots of information. PM me.

 

[sunrayjack12]

I never cared for the guy who invests in a Ferrari by buying one and then putting it on a lift. Twenty years later he could possibly sell it for a nice profit, but look at all those years he missed driving that beauty! Ferrari's are ment to be DRIVEN! The same goes for stereo gear. Enjoy the hell out of it, you could get hit by a truck tomorrow, so have fun now and don't worry about future value.

I usually just pass my old gear onto family members or friends.

Very good !

 

[sunrayjack12]

I flip gear all time like many of us I can sell 140 dollar units all day long to people who believe that audio gear is an investment. I put something of more value up for sale it sits took me 1 years to sell a Fisher 500c for 700 bucks.

Did I buy that?

 

[avionic]

 

[bryans12v]

While I wouldn't consider vintage audio an investment, I don't see this "bubble" ever "popping". These things aren't being made any longer and with every coming day, the number of them out there is getting smaller and smaller. The people selling them are usually the ones who need the money and the ones buying them are the ones whom have the money. Thierry going to keep moving towards the more wealthy individuals which is what drives the price up. Simple supply and demand.

In a new world of cell phones and Bluetooth speakers, I don't see the demand for quality sound ever going away but millennial look at this stuff like it's a console television! Haha!

 

[melofelo]

I think good hi-fi should be enjoyed for what it was designed to do ...reproduce music.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

While I wouldn't consider vintage audio an investment, I don't see this "bubble" ever "popping". These things aren't being made any longer and with every coming day, the number of them out there is getting smaller and smaller.

Mere rarity isn't sufficient to maintain popularity. A handful of iconic devices might cling to marginal desirability for a few years after the last of us aging nostalgists dies off, but it's likely that most remaining silver-face and similar era receivers will be seen only in museums. Vintage cars are similar: there are culturally significant iconic models -- Model A Fords, '57 Chevies and the like -- but how many people covet a '53 Plymouth sedan -- now probably rarer than any Model A or '57 Chevy -- let alone drive one?

Not many.

In a new world of cell phones and Bluetooth speakers, I don't see the demand for quality sound ever going away but millennial look at this stuff like it's a console television! Haha!

The desire for quality sound certainly isn't going to go away, but that desire isn't going to be satisfied by a return to 70's era silverface receivers and monster speakers, whose past popularity was largely driven by fashion. I bet the same percentage of people in the 1970s were interested in excellent sound as now, and that percentage was and is very small.

A genuine desire for adequate-to-good sound can be satisfied by compact devices that don't make earbud-and-bluetooth level sacrifices. Devices like the SONOS Play series and similar are indicative of where the general consumer "good quality" future is headed, particularly as 70's-era technology is not a good way to achieve the best sound. Specialty amplifiers and speakers will always be around to address that specialist market, as they have done since the 1950s.

 

[ggregg]

While I wouldn't consider vintage audio an investment, I don't see this "bubble" ever "popping". These things aren't being made any longer and with every coming day, the number of them out there is getting smaller and smaller. The people selling them are usually the ones who need the money and the ones buying them are the ones whom have the money. Thierry going to keep moving towards the more wealthy individuals which is what drives the price up. Simple supply and demand.

In a new world of cell phones and Bluetooth speakers, I don't see the demand for quality sound ever going away but millennial look at this stuff like it's a console television! Haha!

I always look at what happened to the antique radio market, which was hot as a pistol in the 1990's. In the early 2000's, the market started to cool down, except on certain pieces, like Catalin and high tube count sets. Then the recession hit and it never recovered. Right now you can find many collectable sets at prices better than they have been in decades. We are not talking barn finds as most of those disappeared years ago. Many of these are from collections that are being dispersed.

Many old time radio collectors have passed or downsized as they moved to smaller quarters and the following generations do not have the interest. Some do, but many don't. The people that grew up with them are now in their late 70's or older. I see the same thing happening with audio. Many of us that grew up with this stuff are now either retired or on the verge of doing so and making plans for the future. Some of us, myself including, have already started downsizing. While some young folks have discovered the joys of a great stereo, many young folks are perfectly happy with their phones and bluetooth speakers.

I'm not sure we will see a bubble burst, more of a gradual winding down, with more desirable equipment available for sale than has been in the past, which like it or not, is going to bring the price down, It's all about supply and demand.

 

[bryans12v]

I always look at what happened to the antique radio market, which was hot as a pistol in the 1990's. In the early 2000's, the market started to cool down, except on certain pieces, like Catalin and high tube count sets. Then the recession hit and it never recovered. Right now you can find many collectable sets at prices better than they have been in decades. We are not talking barn finds as most of those disappeared years ago. Many of these are from collections that are being dispersed.

Many old time radio collectors have passed or downsized as they moved to smaller quarters and the following generations do not have the interest. Some do, but many don't. The people that grew up with them are now in their late 70's or older. I see the same thing happening with audio. Many of us that grew up with this stuff are now either retired or on the verge of doing so and making plans for the future. Some of us, myself including, have already started downsizing. While some young folks have discovered the joys of a great stereo, many young folks are perfectly happy with their phones and bluetooth speakers.

I'm not sure we will see a bubble burst, more of a gradual winding down, with more desirable equipment available for sale than has been in the past, which like it or not, is going to bring the price down, It's all about supply and demand.

Trust me, I'm hoping the prices creep back down some. At the moment prices are insane!

 

[ggregg]

Depends on where you look, but in most cases, you are correct.

 

[smurfer77]

[edit: I know we don't usually talk prices outside of barter town, but I feel it's justified here and I'm not trying to buy or sell anything]

I've only being into vintage hifi for the last 3-4 years, and mostly sansui, but there seems to be no evidence of peaking in that department. Over the last two years the AU-555A has gone from $140 to $200, the AU-999 from $250 to $500, the Seven, Eight and Eight Deluxe have seen similar % increases to the 999. Likewise for the AU-666 and forget about the AU-888 these days the price is getting up there! Even my humble but favoured AU-777 variants have pretty much doubled from $200 to $400 or $500 for minty ones. The only thing that hasn't changed much is the lower power old receivers (which is funny because many sound better than the more sought after items). Maybe other brands have peaked but my experience from Sansui in the last couple of years shows no evidence. That's not to say it wont peak or bubble-burst.

For what it's worth, I was boring in the late 70s and most of the gear I buy is older than me. Those of you who know me on this forum know I'm sucked int deep with this vintage thing; I assume there are others of my generation out there getting into it. I introduced a youner friend of mine born in the late 80s, to some Sansui and Allison speakers and he now has a collection growing.... wouldn't count out the allure of that sound and build quality to at least some % of the young kids coming along. Sound quality aside, some of them are just really sick of buying stuff that loses it's value or breaks after 2-3 years and recognize value for money in vintage.

 

[twiiii]

Buying anything that is vintage is a gamble. You have to do your homework by reading reading reading. It does't matter if you collect books, Hifi equipment or Cars. Wonder why no one collects TV's. I imagine there are a few, but nothing like the folks who collect Marantz and Mcintosh tube stuff. Its amazing to me with a little dickering you can buy a 275 VI new cheaper than you can a pristine 275 I. I bought my MC 207 new cheaper than used units today about 6 months after they were introduced.