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Is a amp capable of delivering both delicate detail and body to sound ?

nyhifihead said:
your thread title reminds me of the many statements I've read online regarding the praise of nelson pass/pass labs power amplifiers. full bodied sound even at low wattage unlike many other amplifiers. superb timbre and resolution.

his "first watt" series which is only a handful of watts in pure class A has found universal praise

a pass labs 30.5xa is a killer on the used market, as are the pure class A thresholds, that have been recapped brought up to spec. If you need higher power his pass labs class a/b are also excellent.

his first watt series also offers great value
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Far out there is just so much out there to explore!! I had a bit of a search and would be curious to hear them
 
Northwinds said:
You might want to look into a White Oak Phase Linear 1000. Detailed, warm, high damping factor, almost zero distortion and not analytical in the least. If OP is local, your more then welcome to come and spend a few hours with my amps. Puts out about 514wpc at 8ohms and around 800+ at 4ohms

Lastly, preamp choice is just as important

Here is one of mine based on a 700B (there is nothing Phase Linear left except the chassis and tranny, everything else is TOTL White Oak Audio components)

About $1800-2000 if you have a donor chassis (depending on builder used). Usually if you choose a Phoenix Forum member, they come with a lifetime guarantee

PQ2kIh9.jpg
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This is
Superampman said:
The op can be answered with an objective 'absolutely'. Why not? Who wants an amp that does nothing but play loud? Which ones are designed to do only that? Public address systems?

Yamaha and Technics? You've got a lot to look forward to:)
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Superampman said:
The op can be answered with an objective 'absolutely'. Why not? Who wants an amp that does nothing but play loud? Which ones are designed to do only that? Public address systems?

Yamaha and Technics? You've got a lot to look forward to:)
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Thanks it looks like there's a lot out there.
 
elrod said:
I don't know about the Sony's but the Yamaha B-2 is rated at 140W into 4 ohms and the B-1 is rated at 150W into 4 or 8 ohms. Would definitely not run anything rated or a configuration that runs for an extended period under 4 ohms as you risk damage to the VFETs, which are increasingly difficult if not close to impossible to replace. You pretty much have to get replacement VFETs from another amp. The B-2's are much more common than the B-1's. You'll also find many more techs willing to work on the B-2 Vs a B-1.

I haven't heard how it compares to the MX2000 or MX10000, but if you do a search on this site the B-1 and B-2's are highly regarded. Here's a link about a comparison between B-2 and MX-2000:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/which-is-best-yamaha-b-2-or-mx-2000.320102/
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Thanks Elroy,
Appears that the B2 is preferred sonically to the 2000. Wonder how it compares to the 10000?
 
janusz1 said:
Assuming that an amp is not bad these are speakers and crossovers which determine the quality of sound in any room (forget about room acoustics for the moment). The best sound quality one can get from active crossovers as good active crossovers (say Bessel 4th order) will always introduce much less distortion than passive ones and there is nothing between the amp and the driver so the amp controls its driver directly.

cheers,
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I was interested in bi wiring, because my speakers have 4 terminals. However the top two are for the bass,mid and tweeter on front panel and the bottom for the 6 radiating mids and highs on the top of the speaker box. And I don't want to play with the internal wiring of the passive crossovers. (If they came with 6 or 8 terminals it would have been great).

I think you definately make a good point on the reduced distortion, stronger/clearer/faster sound of active crossovers to each driver.
 
LexDM3 said:
I've had two high power amps through here that both sounded great. One was a McIntosh MC2255, the other a Yamaha MX-1000, each with 250 WPC. Both of them sounded much better to me in terms of sound quality than the 60-90 WPC receivers and integrated amps from Yamaha, Kenwood and Pioneer that I've had. I'm a fan of vintage SS Sansui and Marantz sound so you know where I'm coming from.

That said, both of those amps are no longer here. I didn't need the power and sold them for pretty good money. The SS power amps that I'll likely keep are a Mac MC2505 and a Phase Linear 400. Otherwise I'm pretty much a tube guy now.
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Lex,
Thanks for your message!
Actually we sound like we perhaps have similar tastes.
I've never listened to Sansui, but I do like the feedback sound of the marantz ss (Haven't heard a marantz tube). The marantz ss sound is addictive! But perhaps doesn't have the dynamic range of the Yamaha..?!

My speakers require power to effectively move the 38cm bass driver and accurately move the 9 speakers. So I'm a bit caught.

I also like the sweetness and body of tube! That's why I started this thread. My tube power amp is 50wclass A (or optional 90w AB - but for the majority of music the class A is amazing). I wanted to get a ss for the bass and tubes for the mids and highs but the speaker terminal design will not let me do this.

So... I'm tossing up as to either get another tube amp and use the tube amps as (100w class A) mono blocks or potentially get a ss power amp and maybe use my tube pre amp..?
What do you think?
 
Superampman said:
Taking it up a notch, directly driven full range ESLs would be the ultimate with distortion at the level of the amps as my Acoustat Monitor 3 will testify. They are much better than my Citation XX driving my Kappa 9s. Completely different playing field.
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Mmm... those Acoustat Monitor 3 would be amazing!
 
theophile said:
Someone correctly pointed out that a lot depends upon the recording. It must also be said that the Source component will make or break any system with great aspirations to the highest sound quality. Play crap recordings on a compromised Source and no matter which amp one is using, there will be no high class sound issuing from even the best amps and speakers.
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I've heard Yamaha ns2000 and cabling/source file/dac/player/pre/power is so critical with these speakers
 
Superampman said:
Granted, could have been me, referring to dynamic speakers. But the directly driven Monitor 3s render all recordings otherwise driven to better then direct to disc with a serious cart if you will. Sounds nuts but it truly is like elevating the weakest link to preeminent stature.
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Yes unfortunately my awareness is also drawn to these weak links
 
InWonder said:
Lex,
Thanks for your message!
Actually we sound like we perhaps have similar tastes.

I also like the sweetness and body of tube! That's why I started this thread. My tube power amp is 50wclass A (or optional 90w AB - but for the majority of music the class A is amazing). I wanted to get a ss for the bass and tubes for the mids and highs but the speaker terminal design will not let me do this.

So... I'm tossing up as to either get another tube amp and use the tube amps as (100w class A) mono blocks or potentially get a ss power amp and maybe use my tube pre amp..?
What do you think?
Click to expand...

It sounds like bi-amping using tube and SS for what each does best could be your best option. Use your tube amp for highs and mids and a big SS amp for bass. That assumes that you can bi-amp your speakers as is or with minor mods. You say you can't do that but maybe you can. If you can get to the crossovers, disconnect the woofers, run cable from the woofers to the back panel or temporary connectors, you can test the concept.

If you go that route, you could use something like the Crown XLS series power amps for the bass. They have a built-in DSP so your low pass filter is in the amp. Use a simple hi pass filter between your preamp and tube amp and you've taken the bass out of there.
 
InWonder said:
I'm just exploring this at the moment. I do like tube sound in mids and highs and ideally (depending on music type) and also like the accuracy of ss.
objectively you are right but I'm still on the fence as to which sound I prefer. I need more eyperience
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I have a number of popular tube amps, ie: a pair of Heathkit W5-M, Fisher SA-100, a pair of Electrohome 7189 monos, Dynaco ST-70, and the OTLs that drive the Acoustat Monitor 3s. The St-70 needs work, I have not experienced it yet. But the only one that sounds like a 'tube' amp are the Heathkits. You simply have to want a certain distortion to prefer the 'tube' sound. In a ABX test of top tier tube vs. ss amps, you would not reliably be able to pick out which is which unless the tube amp's designer deliberately engineered in distortion. I will concede it's easier to design transparency into a tube amp, however. But transparency is just that, whether by tubes or ss. I suppose there are those who prefer tubes just because they have not experienced the transparency they hear in tubes thus far in ss.
 
Superampman said:
I have a number of popular tube amps, ie: a pair of Heathkit W5-M, Fisher SA-100, a pair of Electrohome 7189 monos, Dynaco ST-70, and the OTLs that drive the Acoustat Monitor 3s. The St-70 needs work, I have not experienced it yet. But the only one that sounds like a 'tube' amp are the Heathkits. You simply have to want a certain distortion to prefer the 'tube' sound. In a ABX test of top tier tube vs. ss amps, you would not reliably be able to pick out which is which unless the tube amp's designer deliberately engineered in distortion. I will concede it's easier to design transparency into a tube amp, however. But transparency is just that, whether by tubes or ss. I suppose there are those who prefer tubes just because they have not experienced the transparency they hear in tubes thus far in ss.
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That's a very astute and articulate exposition of the situation. In the end; If two entities are telling the truth, they will have the same story to relate. Much of the 'vaunted' superiority of tubes has a lot to do with both the linearity of tubes plus the simplicity of tube circuits. As Nelson Pass and others can show, a well designed simple SS circuit will give little away to tube designs. This might be an indication of the type of SS circuits that need to be sought-out. Class A or biased high into Class A. Discrete. Simple well designed circuits.

The SS discrete amps in my KRK monitors are some of the best amps I have ever heard in my life. Tube or SS. They do a remarkable job of not imposing their own signature on the incoming signal. They are dual mono for each cabinet, discrete and biased to 10 watts Class A before switching to Class AB.

Make Quality your goal and you will be happy with the result no matter which path gets you there. Tubes that sound like SS or SS that sounds like tubes is the wrong approach. What you want is a circuit that doesn't sound like anything at all except the signal that is fed to it.
 
theophile said:
That's a very astute and articulate exposition of the situation. In the end; If two entities are telling the truth, they will have the same story to relate. Much of the 'vaunted' superiority of tubes has a lot to do with both the linearity of tubes plus the simplicity of tube circuits. As Nelson Pass and others can show, a well designed simple SS circuit will give little away to tube designs. This might be an indication of the type of SS circuits that need to be sought-out. Class A or biased high into Class A. Discrete. Simple well designed circuits.

The SS discrete amps in my KRK monitors are some of the best amps I have ever heard in my life. Tube or SS. They do a remarkable job of not imposing their own signature on the incoming signal. They are dual mono for each cabinet, discrete and biased to 10 watts Class A before switching to Class AB.

Make Quality your goal and you will be happy with the result no matter which path gets you there. Tubes that sound like SS or SS that sounds like tubes is the wrong approach. What you want is a circuit that doesn't sound like anything at all except the signal that is fed to it.
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It's my Acoustat monitor 3s that convinced me it makes no difference in topology at the THD numbers the technology has achieved. Speakers by far supercede any sq affect a good amp would render. OTOH I wonder to what extent design has to do with the type of speakers that may or may not be the target? Do speaker types have requisite design features exclusive to each? My Acoustat TNT200 monos sound great driving my Kappa 9s even though they were designed to drive the Acoustat ESL line. But they are no comparison driving the Acoustat Monitor 3s with interfaces(step up transformers to 5000 volts) vs the direct drive OTLs(5000v output) driving the Acoustat Monitor 3s. With the OTLs, distortion at the speaker is akin to what the amp produces. They sound phenomenal. They are full range ESLs, no crossover. Transparency is full and complete. But it's still a mini me, but big:) Direct drive ESL is the ultimate imo....so far. It would be a very interesting comparison to hear an ss amp directly driving the ESLs.

The reason I question whether there are requisite design features incorporated to accommodate speaker type is because I have no trouble hearing differences in sq from amp to amp while listening through dynamic speakers. Seems counter intuitive to my other premise and hence the question. Are compromises being made to an inherently inferior concept? After all, history shows ESLs were preeminent over dynamic drivers with cost being the limiting factor a long time ago.
 
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LexDM3 said:
It sounds like bi-amping using tube and SS for what each does best could be your best option. Use your tube amp for highs and mids and a big SS amp for bass. That assumes that you can bi-amp your speakers as is or with minor mods. You say you can't do that but maybe you can. If you can get to the crossovers, disconnect the woofers, run cable from the woofers to the back panel or temporary connectors, you can test the concept.

If you go that route, you could use something like the Crown XLS series power amps for the bass. They have a built-in DSP so your low pass filter is in the amp. Use a simple hi pass filter between your preamp and tube amp and you've taken the bass out of there.
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LexDM3 said:
It sounds like bi-amping using tube and SS for what each does best could be your best option. Use your tube amp for highs and mids and a big SS amp for bass. That assumes that you can bi-amp your speakers as is or with minor mods. You say you can't do that but maybe you can. If you can get to the crossovers, disconnect the woofers, run cable from the woofers to the back panel or temporary connectors, you can test the concept.

If you go that route, you could use something like the Crown XLS series power amps for the bass. They have a built-in DSP so your low pass filter is in the amp. Use a simple hi pass filter between your preamp and tube amp and you've taken the bass out of there.
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Thanks Lex!
This is new territory for me
I agree that this would probably be the best sonic solution.
How do you think it would compare to two tube mono blocks? Or a tube pre and a ss?

Here is the wiring diagram of the speaker:
http://audio-database.com/ONKYO/speaker/scepter300-e.html
Is there anyone in Sydney Australia that has experience doing this? I'll investigate it.
 
Superampman said:
I have a number of popular tube amps, ie: a pair of Heathkit W5-M, Fisher SA-100, a pair of Electrohome 7189 monos, Dynaco ST-70, and the OTLs that drive the Acoustat Monitor 3s. The St-70 needs work, I have not experienced it yet. But the only one that sounds like a 'tube' amp are the Heathkits. You simply have to want a certain distortion to prefer the 'tube' sound. In a ABX test of top tier tube vs. ss amps, you would not reliably be able to pick out which is which unless the tube amp's designer deliberately engineered in distortion. I will concede it's easier to design transparency into a tube amp, however. But transparency is just that, whether by tubes or ss. I suppose there are those who prefer tubes just because they have not experienced the transparency they hear in tubes thus far in ss.
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That is interesting!
Yes it's a fine line between wanting a sweetness and separation and accepting some distortion vs wanting clear/sharp separation with detail but not wanting it too sharp!!
Mmm I think I just need more listening and need to put some very good amps in to test!

The tube amp (on class a) at the moment sounds better then any class AB ss amp I have heard. I am curious to compare with some of the recommendations in this thread.

I'm equally tempted to just get two tube amps as monoblocks.
 
theophile said:
That's a very astute and articulate exposition of the situation. In the end; If two entities are telling the truth, they will have the same story to relate. Much of the 'vaunted' superiority of tubes has a lot to do with both the linearity of tubes plus the simplicity of tube circuits. As Nelson Pass and others can show, a well designed simple SS circuit will give little away to tube designs. This might be an indication of the type of SS circuits that need to be sought-out. Class A or biased high into Class A. Discrete. Simple well designed circuits.

The SS discrete amps in my KRK monitors are some of the best amps I have ever heard in my life. Tube or SS. They do a remarkable job of not imposing their own signature on the incoming signal. They are dual mono for each cabinet, discrete and biased to 10 watts Class A before switching to Class AB.

Make Quality your goal and you will be happy with the result no matter which path gets you there. Tubes that sound like SS or SS that sounds like tubes is the wrong approach. What you want is a circuit that doesn't sound like anything at all except the signal that is fed to it.
Click to expand...

Objectively you are right! I hope my ears prefer the clean clear accuracy of a very high quality ss and then yes it will come down to the source file. ( I am very happy with the cabling, dac and speakers)

Trial and error.
 
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